"Likewise: people on the other side of the debate see publicly encouraging (not "demanding" or "requiring", but still, "advocating for") someone NOT to publish a labor of love the way they want to publish it but instead to change it to fit some perceived ethical or commercial imperative is likewise equally bad-in-itself."
Greg is not just "advocating for" someone NOT to publish.
"People don't want their beloved games on the same shelf with this stuff, they don't like to see it included in the mix. They don't want someone looking at LOTFP Grindhouse Edition as being a part of RPGs, lest the negativity flow back onto other RPGs. Our hobby went through a very long and painful doldrum period where we struggled with negative reputational effects. We are just now getting to the point where it is not a big issue anymore. The last thing people want is for something like this to trigger even more negative associations. I try very hard not to describe RPGs as being "like D&D" because of this negative history. I would truly hate to have to disavow even more material."
"The problem with LOTFP Grindhouse Edition is that it violates the boundaries set by the community. It goes over the line that people are willing to comfortably tolerate, it is beyond the acceptable standard of behavior, and people have reacted to that in a variety of ways."
He's claiming that I agree with him. He's claiming that you agree with him. He's pretending he has a level of support, which he doesn't, in an attempt to create a perception in the mind of his reader's, that his view of what is acceptable and normal is shared by the majority.
He thinks that will work. After all, what the Majority thinks, is very important to Greg, so why shouldn't it work? It's typical mammalian politics and if I'm guilty of bad taste, in pointing this out and calling Greg to the Carpet for it, then I'm ok with that.
Edit: A Snippet of a comment to this post, made by ADD Grognard -
"I could tell a very long bad story about how this ended the first time in the 80's. When RPGs were NOT a niche market but the fastest growing entertainment segment of the time. Of the religion freaks who threatened my customers until they wouldn't come back and shop.
To the customers I lost when TSR caved in to these peoples' demands. Customers who left for good. It took me 20 years to come back.
I will be damned and go to hell before I let that happen again without saying something this time."That's why this is important.
Stop this, please. All of you.
ReplyDeleteI really don't want to get into this whole debate, but I will say that, personally, I find that games such as LotFP Grindhouse, Vornheim and others, such as Stonehell Dungeon, have set new boundaries for the hobby, in terms of content and graphic design. They're setting new standards, at least that's how I see it.
ReplyDeleteAnd really, the artwork in LotFP isn't that bad or in poor taste or all that shocking. I've seen worse. If you don't like, don't read it or buy it. There's plenty of other things out there; and there are also more important and better things to be have a morale stance against, RPGs shouldn't be one of them. In the grand scheme of life, the hobby isn't that important.
People, please, just chill. Relax. Enjoy life. It's too short as it is.
"Forgive him, for he believes that the customs of his tribe are the laws of nature!" - GB Shaw
ReplyDeleteWhat's the big fuss about exactly?
ReplyDeleteFantasy artwork has had breasts in it since the 1900's, and this stuff is alot less shocking than Gustav Dore's or Arthur Rackham's surreal and disturbing artwork (that appeared in kids books!).
Is there something else going on? I really feel out of touch... :D
I see the reason why you're going mad on this, but really, what do you want to show us? That Greg is trolling like he always did?
ReplyDeleteWe really already know that. Take it easy man, we don't give a fuck about what trolls say, and so should you.
@Il Male - I'm willing to grant that I've got a sense of humor deficiency, at the moment.
ReplyDeleteRock on, James. I also think this whole "community standards" thing is a fig-leaf, both here and in the sexism discussion with Zak, too. If he was the fully impartial sociologist he sometimes claims to be, he would never talk about what people SHOULD do. Descriptive, not prescriptive!
ReplyDeleteI can't wait till Carcosa is re-issued. This conversation will be tame compared to what happens then.
ReplyDeleteIn the eighties I could buy issues of Heavy Netal, with graphic gore and sexual content, at gas stations and corner stores.
ReplyDeleteThere is a word for people like Greg, and that word is coward.
Bow To No One!
I miss Heavy Metal. Is it still any good? I think it's still in publication, but I never hear about it, anymore.
ReplyDeleteI'm beginning to believe he is a plant and we need to shut this down. No one who has taken the kind of negative response he has received can still be trying to defend an indefensible position.
ReplyDeleteHe claims that the rpg gaming public have a problem with this and he has been corrected multiple times, but he continues to hold the line.
I noticed that when I posted my response at add grognard not only was he the first commenter but he posted in the first 26 minutes which means he is tracking this topic wherever it goes.
I could tell a very long bad story about how this ended the first time in the 80's. When RPGs were NOT a niche market but the fastest growing entertainment segment of the time. Of the religion freaks who threatened my customers until they wouldn't come back and shop.
To the customers I lost when TSR caved in to these peoples' demands. Customers who left for good. It took me 20 years to come back.
I will be damned and go to hell before I let that happen again without saying something this time.
As for the position of the OSR, I could quote a lot of material compiled over the past 2 years as to just how large this has become but I will simply let you ponder this:
Why would the largest game company in the world who holds the most recognized name in all of rpg gaming decide to release a starter set with the EXACT art and the EXACT color scheme of an old product if they didn't feel there was a threat to their bottom line?
There is only one answer to that.
When 4e dropped in 2008 WotC had an estimated 24 million players. Today that number is 1.5 million.
Where did everyone go? Hint: They didn't all go to Paizo and they don't all play MMOs.
We have let this person divide us and we need to stop that. Cheesy as it may sound I believe our strength can be found in a Vulcan philosophy: The IDIC-Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations.
I believe it takes all of us. The creators, the chroniclers, the archivists and the players who make up this community, which I do believe exists-this subject has proven that-to make all this work.
We grow larger and stronger everyday.
We just need to learn how to deal with the saboteurs better.
Now, I've got a system to finish so I'm going to get back to work. I just wish I had the money to put Giger's 'Penis Landscape' on the cover :)
"I could tell a very long bad story about how this ended the first time in the 80's. When RPGs were NOT a niche market but the fastest growing entertainment segment of the time. Of the religion freaks who threatened my customers until they wouldn't come back and shop.
ReplyDeleteTo the customers I lost when TSR caved in to these peoples' demands. Customers who left for good. It took me 20 years to come back.
I will be damned and go to hell before I let that happen again without saying something this time."
Given how many have asked why people are publicly disagreeing with Greg, That bore repeating.
I just want to clarify to ADD that I am not a plant. I have never, nor will I ever, engage in photosynthesis.
ReplyDeleteTrue not a plant, but a man with an infinite seeming capacity for self-aggrandizement.
ReplyDeleteReading Greg's blog is like an endless repetition of "me, me, me, me" followed by a self-indignant chorus of "straw man, straw man, straw man" when someone raises a counter-argument.
Dude, people are sick of your ego-stroking, poorly constructed arguments, and dull, lifeless games.
See what I mean...
ReplyDeleterabble rabble rabble
ReplyDeletePlease stop. My life is kind of a mess and reading blogs helps me to feel a little better. It's a drag to see people fighting. For my part, I scoured my blog of all "I am teh Angry!" posts. I think we should all just chill and rock out with our dice out.
ReplyDeleteHear hear. Don't feed the trolls. Anyone interested in this dispute can read through the posts and comments and make up their own minds about what the issues are.
ReplyDeleteSo, bugbears...
Pumpkin heads, big furry goblins, or what? I like idea from the Eiglophian Press (now Gorgonmilk) that bogarts form from the residue of nightmares and grow into bugbears.
"The problem with LOTFP Grindhouse Edition is that it violates the boundaries set by the community..."
ReplyDeleteI would argue by virtue of being involved with various OSR projects and others, I am a part of this 'community.' I did not agree to any boundaries of good taste or decency.
I'm not particularly interested in stuff that resembles the more main stream entertainments such as is being put out by the major houses of WOTC and others. I'm not interested in preventing them from publishing 4e or 5e or 6e etc., but they don't have me in mind... I'm not a part of their demographic any more than I was a part of the people who listened to 'Hall & Oates' records back in the 80s.
My opinion is that problem with the whole PR job that TSR tried to do in the 80s with Pat Pulling and BADD and others is that they caved to unreasonable demands. Pulling and her ilk said that D&D caused people to become Satanists of whatever. The charge was pure bunk. By removing words like 'Devil' from their books, TSR actually appeared to support the spurious claims that had been made against the hobby.
I know the difference between fiction and reality. I'm not willing to adjust what fiction I expose myself to in order to accomodate someone else's prejudices, nor would I demand that someone else stop collecting Hummel Figuries or Beanie Babies or Thomas Kinkade prints just because I find those things distasteful or horrid.
I don't think the mainstream RPG circles have a clue about what is going on. Most people don't know LotFP from Lord of the fucking Rings. And DCC makes them think of Batman and Robin. My gaming group (we play almost every Thursday) wouldn't even heard of LotFP or DCC if I didn't talk about wanting to play them.
ReplyDelete"I want to play OSR."
They say, "What's that?"
Tits or GTFO
ReplyDeleteThree things that enrich the poet:
ReplyDeleteMyths, poetic prose, a store of ancient verse.
The two poetic schools did not at first come in contact, the 'big-bellied' well-dressed court-bards being forbidden to compose in the minstrel style and penalized if they visited any but the houses of princes or nobles; the lean and ragged minstrels not being privileged to perform at any court, nor trained to use the complicated verse-forms required of the court-bards. However, in the thirteenth century the minstrels were taken up by the Norman-French invaders, apparently through the influence of Breton knights who could understand Welsh and who recognized some of tales as better versions of those which they had heard at home. The troveres, or finders, translated them into contemporary French and adapted them to the Provencal code of chivalry, and in their new dress conquered Europe.
Welsh and Norman families intermarried and it was no longer easy to keep the minstrel out of the courts. In an early thirteenth-century poem by one Phylip Brydydd records a contention between himself and certain 'vulgar rhymesters' as to who should first present a song on Christmas Day to his patron, Prince Rhys Ieunac at Llanbadarn Fawr in South Wales. Prince Rhys was a close ally of the Normans. The two thirteenth-century poems which will be here examined are the work of a 'vulgar rhymester' - vulgar at least by Phylip's aristocratic canon of what a poet should be.
From Robert Graves 'The White Goddess'
Things never really change.
That's uncanny. I read that yesterday. That exact section. o_O
ReplyDeleteStorm in a teacup. People with views like Greg are in the minority. The majority of people can see the benefits of living in a society with artistic freedom. Who gives a shit what a minority of puritanical zealots think?
ReplyDeleteI think everyone's about done with this... until the next OSR game causes a moral outrage.
ReplyDeleteMarvelous. "Hotdogs and Halfwits, the RPG", sausagefest edition.
ReplyDeleteInstead of going on about "the community thinks this" or "stance x is in the minority", it'd be relatively simple for someone to put up a poll and see what the OSR actually thinks.
ReplyDelete(Of course, even if by some miracle, the vast majority disapprove of LotFP that's still no reason not to publish. It'll just have its own niche audience. )
Let it go. I happen to agree with you James- Some things are obvious. Its is obvious that GC speaks only for himself.
ReplyDeleteIt is also obvious that Raggi's work has been mostly given rave reviews by the various 'voices' of the OSR online. The very same echo chamber OSR blog roll- who all buy the same games and modules and review the very same work in much the same manner.
Don't get me wrong, I enjoy reading all your blogs. And the reviews and all that.
But you guys have to understand that your OSR community is very insulated and self contained and you only tend to preach to the choir even when the choir is singing in a different key than you had in mind.
Raggi knows how many boxes of his 'perverse' game he has shipped. Corcosa sold how many copies? Perhaps the issue really is that GC doesn't like the notion that there's a good number of folks who like more 'questionable' material.
I for one wouldn't buy any of it not because I am offended but because I don't need any of this work to tickle my imagination. But that's me. To each their own.
ADD Grognard, where did you find this information?
ReplyDeleteWhen 4e dropped in 2008 WotC had an estimated 24 million players. Today that number is 1.5 million.
I'm not challenging you on it, I just want to know where you got it so I can link to it. I've been craving info like this for years!
Ok, I just want to add one thing. Man up and put a name with your post or don't bother posting..seriously...Anonymous don't cut it.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you James, but stop giving Greg this platform please. :) Your arguments against him are making him look more relevant than he is. I would not have even heard of him and his complaints if not for your blog!
ReplyDeleteOh, and lest I offend "named" posters like ADD Grognard (ahem), call me Jack, rather than Annonymous.
@Erin-It all started with the now infamous interview with Mike Mearls at The Escapist.
ReplyDeleteComplete Interview
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/columns/writersroom/8115-Complete-Mike-Mearls-D-D-4th-Edition-Essentials-Interview
This quote got me thinking:
The Escapist: As far as 4th, Essentials, the whole design philosophy you're bringing in. What's the method behind it all?
Mike Mearls: The key is that when you look back at how D&D has gone forward; no one at Wizards ever woke up one day and said "Let's get rid of all our fans and replace them," that was never the intent.
So I went looking for more information. This is one of the 2 pieces I found to get an idea what the statement implied. I have lost the other page but this quote from CNN was found during that search:
Wizards of the Coast, the current publishers of D&D, recognized that some of the 24 million people who used to play the game left, not because they didn't want to play, but because their lifestyles changed
http://articles.cnn.com/2010-06-08/living/new.dungeons.dragons_1_dungeon-master-gamers-play?_s=PM:LIVING
(The one I have lost named the estimated # at 1.5 million current players)
That’s when I realized why they seem to just be throwing things at the wall and see what sticks. Notice how they have abandoned Essentials already but tried converting near ready material back into the 4e format.
Example: Heroes of Shadow
What appears to be a 4e formatted book has the following text inside:
ABOUT THIS BOOK
Player's Option: Heroes of Shadow™ is a DUNGEONS & DRAGONS® game supplement designed for players who are already familiar with the game through books such as Rules Compendium and Heroes of the Fallen Lands™ or Heroes of the Forgotten KingdomsTM. This book presents the rules you need to make characters who use shadow magic. You'll need to refer to Rules Compendium for all the details on how the game works.
So which is it? An Essentials book or a 4e book? And before I get the ‘they are both the same’ routine it seems to be suggesting that a 4e player needs to buy Essentials books to use this one.
Dodgy.
I think J. Raggi and Zak do great work. I like their products, have purchased many of them, and I look forward to more. But I will say this (with due respect to James and the above authors):
ReplyDeleteJames said that his grandfather fought in WWII in part to protect freedom of expression. I agree. But in my view, healthy freedom of expression is more than just an absence of legal prohibitions. It also encompasses a certain level of tolerance for opposing views and ideas, especially minority or dissenting ones, as well as charity to those who have them. Jumping on someone in a sort of mob attack, with swear words and personal insults hurled from the very beginning, as well as the constant use of the thuggish anti-argument--"he's in the minority so who cares what he believes", etc.--isn't what his grandfather fought for. It's what he fought against.
Isn't it?
@ Oakes - This had nothing to do with Greg not liking GE. Or, Criticizing GE.
ReplyDeleteAgain, it was about this:
""That I find the art distasteful, as an atheist libertarian, makes me feel that people with much much more conservative views would have real serious problems with this art.
For that reason, I don't think it should be published."
Combined with what I related in the body of this post. And Greg's other recent posts. Don't miss the latest.
Greg has set himself up as our savior and spokesperson. I don't need one. I decided to tell Greg that, and show him how to do something, I suggested he attempt, not too long ago.
I support LotFP. I own and will continue to buy their products. I do not own the GE, nor will I be buying it. Not because I'm offended.
Again, see ADD Grognards words in these comments and copied at the bottom of the post.
OK, as the guy who inadvertently started Porngate over asking Zak to either tone it down OR put a warning label on IHIWMA after a player brought his young children to my house and a dozen or so goofballs decided to run amok with the story and make it into something it never was, I have to find myself siding with James Raggi on this. James pours all of himself into what he does and he gets a lot of flak from those who only wish that they had half the talent that the guy has in his little finger. So what if he made Grindhouse Edition? Nobody is forced to buy it for one, so it isn't going to sit on your shelf if you don't want it to. As for the art? It might be shocking if you have never seen Hieronymus Bosch or Dali or any art by underground artists and illustrators over the last several decades and some people haven't. But really, it isn't going to turn you satanic or make you burn churches. If those overly sensitive can see beyond the art they will see Raggi's talent shine through.
ReplyDeleteOk, seriously. I think Greg is suffering from some kind of psychotic break. Remember how he wasn't posting about all this at his blog? Well now we live in a box. Read the whole thing. I think he has lost it.
ReplyDeletehttp://errantgame.blogspot.com/2011/06/you-are-in-box.html
So, Greg thinks furries are bad! Bad, bad, bad! And everyone's gonna think we're furries, because Mr. Raggi said so, or something. ;)
ReplyDeleteYa know, I only have two rules:
ReplyDelete(1)You DO NOT mess with children.
(2) You DO NOT force anyone to do something they don't want to do.
That's it. Consenting adults are free to frolic as they wish.
I really know I should have played the H.R. Giger card sooner. GE is Disney compared to that man. Make certain your safe search is turned off and scroll through a few of these puppies:
(FAIR WARNING:GRAPHIC)
http://www.google.com/search?um=1&hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&biw=1024&bih=563&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=h.r.+giger+painting&btnG=Search&oq=h.r.+giger+painting&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=s&gs_upl=165258l165258l0l1l1l0l0l0l0l172l172l0.1l1
(FAIR WARNING:GRAPHIC)
My wife bought me the Giger tarot deck one year for Christmas and a buddy was checking out the cards when he stopped on one and said "wtf is that supposed to be?...a guy staring up into a womans, well...you know, with a shotgun in his mouth?
My response was "I like to call that one marriage :)
(It also gives that 'you're in a box' reference a whole new meaning come to think of it :)
Oh no...it's a Bill Hicks Moment:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFfXXuyi2FQ
R.I.P. buddy and know you are missed
As I read around the blogosphere on this it is amusing to see how sensitive many people are, calling the guy a bunch of names that they could not handle being called themselves without getting all nerdraged out. In the end, he *really* doesn't like this stuff, that is his perogative. Those making personal attacks on the guy through the internet are weak, leave that to the professionals at Your Dungeon Is Suck.
ReplyDelete@ ancientvaults: It was never just about someone not liking Grindhouse. You didn't read closely enough if that's what you think. Also, to me the fact that people lost their cool over this and showed some honest emotion is something I find more human and genuine that the "professionalism" of Your Dungeon Is Suck. Ugh.
ReplyDeleteI read through his post and it is pretty harsh, I will grant you that. I don't agree with the guy, but there are a few unhealthy cults among the ranks of the OSR by the same token that are quite rabid about this or that, often to the point of censoring those who disagree, which is just as bad in my book (and the censoring quite honestly just smacks of paranoia and an inability to accept criticism-quite odd in a certain circle as abject liberalism is all about everyone's right to their own voice, apparently as long as that voice doesn't disagree it is just fine). If you like something, be honest and point out its merits, if you don't, you have the right to voice your opinion, although that whole "you are in the box" rant was rather belittling and unnecessary.
ReplyDeleteI miss Heavy Metal. Is it still any good? I think it's still in publication, but I never hear about it, anymore.
ReplyDeleteIt sucks now. The good news is that the massive print runs in the 80s mean back issues are easy to find and cheap.