Ok. I love this picture. I know it's been said that it isn't Tramp's best work and I agree. But there's something just "right" about it. I think the redscale really helps bring it all together. And everything in the picture kinda conspires to make Lareth look Badass!
All of these were Found during a Google Image Search. I like the one above. The maps all expand, when clicked.
I love Hommlet. First Module I ever DMed. Hell, I'm pretty sure it's the first thing I ever DM'ed period. I can count on two hands, the total number of modules I've ran. The Village of Hommlet, The Assassin's Knot, TSR's first Conan module, Rappan Athuk 1-3, The Vault of Larin Karr, Larm, a little bit of Stonehell and The Swords & Wizardry Quick-Start. I think that's it. I need to run more modules. Expand my repertoire, playing around with other people's imaginings. Castle of the Mad Archmage, maybe?
I'm not so thrilled with The Temple of Elemental Evil, though.
I have no idea how closely these maps adhere to canon.
So, since I'm rebooting my campaign and decided to start over, with OSRIC, no less, the usual thought assails me.
"Why not run Greyhawk?"
Because I've never ran a published setting, save for mini-stuff like Karr and Larm. Both of those are very good, The Vault of Larin Karr in particular. Which is probably why it costs $50+ on the second hand market. I think you can get it in PDF, though. I foolishly sold my copy, a few years ago (dammit!) I Still have my original three part set of Rappan Athuk, though. I'll never get rid of those! Besides, my wife would have my head! Heh, killed my wife's character in Rappan Athuk! But, if you're running 3.x or Pathfinder and want a ready to go sandbox/mini-campaign, then The Vault of Larin Karr is worth it's weight in Mithril.
So, if I did run GH and Hommlet, where would I go from there?
I'm gonna print out this colorized Hommlet!
Ooh! A Hexmap version.
This one is kinda dull.
So, I'll end with Zuggtmoy.
T1 is the best starter module I've ever come across. For me it is a great example of what AD&D is all about, but I am a fan of low level play. There are other great modules out there like B10 Night's Dark Terror, Judges Guild's Dark Tower, Hackmaster's B2 Little Keep on the Borderland by Jolly Blackburn (not to be compared with the more farcical or downright stupid Hackmaster rewrites, Little Keep is an expansion of the original with innovations). I am also very fond of the modules X4 and X5 and X8. The A1 & A2 part of the slavers series, GDQ1-7, Night Below, Gates of Firestorm Peak, Return to the Tomb of Horrors...
ReplyDeleteThere are great adventures out there. It is not an endless list but defintely enough to keep a group occupied for several years.
If you decide to run T1 don't feel that you need to follow with the Temple of Elemental Evil. Personally I would savor the experience of low level play and flesh out adventures in the surrounding campaign. B10 Nights Dark Terror although written for D&D and Mystara is easily adapted and makes an excellent addition the the area surrounding Hommlet. If you ever wanted to explore wither a gnomish campaign or an elven wood, both are nearby. Hommlet can be a very rich setting for low level characters to enjoy. The Moat House cries out for refurbishment and the establishment of a base of operations for adventurers. As a DM just using T1 and working from there is a great opportunity I would take advantage of and see where your imagination and the players interest will take you.
I've run Village of Hommlet more times than I can count. You might be interested in one particular time, however (this was years and years before Temple of Elemental Evil came out, so the moat house was the climax of the adventure).
ReplyDeleteThe party was neutral, and not there so much to foil the rise of the Temple as to loot the moat house. This they did in short order, killing Lareth in the process, and returned to the village in style. They used the village as a base for a while, rooting around smaller dungeons in the Kron Hills. Two thieves in the party decided to ply their trade in the village, however, and eventually, they ran afoul of the Viscount's troops and the whole party was forced to flee to the Wild Coast. The pickings were richer there, anyway.
My point, if I even have one, is that Hommlet is such a great locale that it can act as a terrific location for adventures even (especially?) without the Temple of Elemental Evil hanging over everything. I heartily agree with Jason in that, from personal experience.
Thanks Gentlemen! I think I'm going to do just that! Ditch the ToEE and use Hommlet as ground zero. :)
ReplyDeleteNow, to work!
Those maps are sweet. I also dig that crazy crawdad in the Trampier image. Is that a beastie encountered in the adventure?
ReplyDelete@James: +1 to ditching ToEE. Instead, place Zuggtmoy at the bottom of CotMA (or perhaps just roaming the upper levels...)
ReplyDelete@Christian: Giant Crayfish is in the text. Pain in the ass, that thing is.
Hi Christian - Yeah, he's there. :)
ReplyDeleteHi scottsz! Roaming the upper levels, eh? :)
ReplyDeleteThe very first map you posted there is fucking AWESOME. I love ditching the grid and hand-drawing maps (which I'm sure a few of you may have noticed in my own maps) - so this map of the village is PURE MOTHERFUCKING GOLD to me.
ReplyDeleteHi Dyson! Cool! :) I was hoping some folks would find something they liked!
ReplyDeleteGreat post!
ReplyDeleteHi mortellan!
ReplyDeleteThat piece of Tramp art is, in fact, my favourite. It captures the comic book aesthetic of the pastel modules perfectly.
ReplyDeleteNot a big fan of Hommlet, though. It spends a lot of its pagecount on entirely mundane inhabitants, as opposed to B2's Keep or City State of the Invincible Overlord, which are both about adventures. A few farmers and such would be good for flavour, but it is altogether too much (the same problem cropped up in Yggsburgh many years later, except without the brevity of T1).
Thank you for compiling these maps!
ReplyDeleteI'm a huge fan of Greyhawk and ye olden folios for the setting. Just enough text and background to sketch the continent, with more detailed material for Greyhawk City if one desired. I Set many, many years of adventures there and built much of the history of the lands from entries in the DMG magic and artifact section. Stuff is vague enough, you have room to fill in the blanks. Especially if you stick to the stuff before the Greyhawk Wars.
@Melan: Disagree... Hommlet's inhabitants are not mundane. T1's maps don't show enough plots of land for agriculture and animal husbandry, but that's the only real flaw I can see for the village. T1 served as a 'character primer' for myself or others who had substandard exposure to medieval history in school.
ReplyDeleteThe 'adventure' part of T1 is what makes the least sense: why is the Moathouse so far away from the village, what was its construction history, and why is a structure so intact abandoned by humans altogether? It would almost make more sense that Burne and Rufus' planned keep would be atop the ruins (and dungeon) right near the village, right?
The ToEE storyline is one of Gygax's weakest pieces: the forces of Good simply 'don't notice' that a massive temple and megadungeon are constructed near a prosperous village and a major city?
@James: give the Green Lady a little freedom. Think about what effect a couple of earthquake spells would have on her imprisonment.
Given that fungi are natural, could she effect agricultural change if her confinement were compromised? It would be pretty cool if some Hommlet farmers were having a 'good year' due to secret sacrifices to a 'Green Lady'...
Sorry for a long comment.
I cannot begin to even express the feelings of nostalgia... Or the number of times I have started a campaign in Hommlet... So I will just shut up!
ReplyDeleteWonderful post and lovely images....
I wonder about the one with Vaasa and Damara in there...Is that someone's attempt to insert the module in the Forgotten Realms setting?
@scottsz - Write as much as you like! :) And I like the 'Green Lady' idea!
ReplyDelete@netlich - I knew that looked off, but it's been far too long since I looked over Greyhawk and it had things like Emridy Meadows, etc.
ReplyDelete@James: Now *there's* a starting point. The Battle of Emridy Meadows... would make a perfect spot for a haunting, right?
ReplyDeleteSpirits in the earth... local folklore... mysterious earthquakes from time to time... Adventurers passing through or hired to investigate. Memories of a 'great battle'. There are no monuments to it in Hommlet...
Remember that book/movie 'The Keep' - I'm thinking something like that - secret forces of woe, unable to loose the magical bindings containing the Lady of Fungi resort to trying to excavate and destroy the structure of the ToEE and it's dungeon.
A little Zuggtmoy 'leakage' into the surrounding areas (remember that old Angmar/Witch King RPG supplement?) and all kinds of weird/cult stuff can ensue.
Burne/Rufus' planned construction indicates that enough commerce/wealth is growing in the vicinity to justify the keep's building. Why?
You could pull in sources ranging from Celtic folklore to Stephen King's Tommyknockers. With the Good/Evil Emridy battle as a starting point this could go gothic horror or cut through druidic history or land square in the middle of the Wicker Man.
Zuggtmoy is the Lady of Fungi. Do fungi grow in the Abyss? What is a demon's true relationship to the Prime Material Plane?
Damn... did it again.
@scottsz - Feel free to keep going! :)
ReplyDelete@scottsz Indeed the dilemma of increased agriculture (with the itchy bitsy minor issue of demonic incursions and the odd sacrifice ;) ) is a very good concept...Well thought!
ReplyDeleteFor the story part I disagree though. Although I guess it depends on which module and what edition we go by (I go by 2nd edition's T1-4 supermodule).
To me it sounded pretty fine. Hommlet was a small community in the wilderness (ala Keep in the borderlands). It wasn't near enough to any major post that could send mass armies and patrols were scarce. Nulb was the port town with the tarnished image and rumors floated. Then it became really bad as the Temple was finally built and started becoming a nuisance.
The moathouse was an extension of the Temple - it was not built to protect the village but rather to control it by the forces of evil. the forces of good finally mobilised en masse and the Battle of Emridy Meadows brought evil to its knees.
Rufus and Burne emerged after that and decided to build a keep to protect the village - properly placing it inside the village.
Without their knowledge the temple and the moathouse were slowly repopulated though and rumors are floating again...
@netlich: What you have works fine - I'm not suggesting that T1-4 doesn't 'function' (plenty of groups over the years have had a blast with it), just that 'back in the day' I was expecting a much more substantial boxed set.
ReplyDeleteI hated that ToEE was a 'high level' module. T1 is basically for levels 1-2, possibly 3. If T2 was its sequel, then it should've targeted levels 2-5, in my opinion.
I feel that modules, as a 'concept' weren't utilized more because of level requirements. If TSR had engineered a format delivering adventure content in a 'level independent' fashion... it sounds ridiculous, but just consider the idea... 'level-less' adventures...
I call ToEE Gygax's weakest effort because given that details like Snurre's name or WG4's cult are drawn from real life or folklore, T1-4 still feels less inspired. Excuse the nitpicking:
* The Moathouse seems way too 'big' a structure (with dungeon!) to be placed as a garrison for such a tiny village, in my opinion (unless Hommlet has a secret diamond mine... (Adventure hook?)
* Nulb... seems railroaded in to cover the 'level gap'.
* Z is the Demoness Lady of Fungi, Shouldn't her throne room look more like a fungal paradise - Willy Wonka-esque or Alice in Wonderland-ish?
* Fungi? Darkness/Dampness isn't incorporated into the dungeon areas. Z is an entity of demonic chaos, yet the maps are extremely orderly and dungeon-like. Wouldn't she reside in cramped caverns? Wouldn't light and dry elements be a bane to her? Organic chaos, please! Adventurers better have Cure Disease handy, because fungi/spores in a Demon Lords boudoir would require a HazMat suit!
* The Battle of Emridy Meadows is pivotal to Greyhawk (and it should be)... shouldn't even the dungeon areas containing Zuggtmoy show scars of such a battle that recent occupants couldn't repair?
* It seems too far removed from Iuz's character to partner up with Zuggtmoy. If anyone would hire adventurers to make sure Z stays down there, it would be Iuz. (Adventure hook!) It makes more sense for Iuz to oppose Z and 'engineer' the Battle of Emridy Meadows from a strategy viewpoint. Weaken Good, cripple Z's Temple, and then push militarily to the East.
* Lareth's 'dual service' explanation sucked. Connecting Lareth, Zuggtmoy and Lolth seems full of serious possibilities. Who is he? He's chaotic evil, has extraordinary abilities... If he's a connection between Zuggtmoy and Lolth, wouldn't Iuz pay a fortune for him if captured? Symbols: Zuggtmoy = Fungi. Lolth = Spider. The two idea chains collide at a single concept: poison. Fungi & Spiders can both be poisonous, and Nulb is nearby (assassins?)
* I loved that Thrommel was hidden in there (a real Greyhawk 'anchor' in the encounter areas!), but there's weak backstory as to why he was brought there (for 'safekeeping'? huh?). Adventurers who had Greyhawk backgrounds would grab him and head for the nearest city. As a 'treasure', Thrommel is priceless, particularly alive! An example where an encounter can change the direction of an entire campaign (like a certain area in Death Frost Doom, for another example).
* Zuggtmoy should be a character like Poison Ivy from the comics, right?
Sorry to ramble... I thought TSR was going to create WoG box #2, with adventure(s), supplementals, and a booklet presenting campaign possibilities and directions, etc. As wonderful a megadungeon as it is, TSR kicked me in the nuts with T1-4. NOT THAT I'M BITTER!
@James: As compensation for the highjack, please accept these two optimized headers for your blog:
PNG JPG
@scottz - Stop apologizing! Feel free to bookmark this post and update the comments as you please!
ReplyDeleteAnd thanks for the Headers! I've got some chores to get to but I'll swap out later this evening. :)
Sorry to ramble...
ReplyDeleteNo need to apologize. I thought ToEE was a very weak effort, riddled with inconsistencies. errors, and outright foolishness. It can charitably be called "workmanlike," but it definitely failed to live up to its potential.
I'm all optimized now! Thanks scottsz!
ReplyDeleteRetrospective: The Temple of Elemental Evil - From Grognardia
ReplyDeleteWell said by all. I can't recall whether there is an inside story to this but indeed T1-4 (or rather T2 onwards) seems rushed and not overly done even for Gygax style.
ReplyDeleteTo me though that was the beauty of it. As a starting DM I would usually get in the position where using an overly detailed adventure forced me to attempt to use it "unspoiled". I felt compelled to use every little detail the author had used. And would subconsciously avert the PCs from veering off the course of the module or from what the writer had included. IT felt like I was doing the person who created this gem injustice.
With the Temple though I was forced to create my own back-stories. And as with other such modules this is what I love about them. They give you the framework, the incentive and the push to start and then leave you to keep running on your own.
So to help James with more ideas may I ask - what is the most provocative/alternative or memorable thing that you guys have form this module? Was it something the PCs did? Was it a side quest that turned into a major plot? Some great plot twist you inserted which played out amazingly in game?
@netlich: That's an excellent point - there is value to an adventure pushing DM creativity!
ReplyDeleteDid T1-4's perception take a hit by TSR/WotC's forced (and sometimes awful) canon that came after T1-4's publication?
For me, the term 'Greyhawk adventure', including the classic boxed set, still carries a very DIY aura. I've been pretty let down by how militant the canon fanboys have become - it's too easy for an 'archival' discussion to become filled with talk of historical timelines, Suel migrations, etc. that (while interesting) can serve to enforce 'canon' and put up a barrier preventing homebrew DM's from using the materials. I'm curious when people stopped 'using GH modules' and were required to 'run Greyhawk'.
Hypothetically, if T1-4 were the last 'Greyhawk' adventure published, would perception of it, and Greyhawk, be more positive? Would using the materials be easier?
TAKING SMITH UP ON HIS OFFER - MORNING COFFEE = BRAINSTORMING ALT/T2 IDEAS!
ReplyDeleteFrom the top down: Cosmology - dump it. Instead, start with some questions:
#1 You are a demon lord (or lady!). You are immortal. You have a ton of powers, you are immune or resistant to all kinds of stuff. You rule over an entire plane of existence in the Abyss, which you can fashion and mold to every whim. Why would you bother with the Prime Material Plane at all?
#2 As a demon, what benefits are there to 'receiving' worship from mere mortals?
#3 Classic D&D Demons are very much modelled after a Western 'template'. What about the demons of the East? The Star Demons in Mesoamerica are feared to appear during an eclipse and take people away! Is a Jungian approach valuable to a DM: that demons are manifestations of fear, terror, hatred? Alternatively, are they entities that thrive on those emotions? If so, are there mechanics that are missing to account for that (i.e. a demon unchecked will literally grow in power?)
#4 To steal a Western 'devil' convention: Could the Prime Material Plane have been their place of origin and they were 'cast out' by the gods or some other 'event'? This would set the stage for the unending quest to dominate the worlds of the Prime - they seek a return 'home'. Lolth is Queen of Spiders. Zuggtmoy is the Lady of Fungi. Why should 'earthly' symbols be integral to a demons identity unless demons had some kind of historical connection?
#5 Chaos. Embodying chaos. What does it mean? The fantasy theme of an 'army of chaos'... gone. A horde, perhaps, held together only out of fear or other controlling motivation. The grand 'temples of chaos'... also gone. You can't have a group of a thousand beings of pure chaos and take 150 years to patiently build the Hagia Sophia... not happening. Demons must tear down order anywhere they find it. They despise the law and lawfulness. Following the rules, today? A demon's coming after you... but it might not kill you - it wants to force you to break the law, to embrace YOUR chaos. It will use force and fear and guile. It will plan ahead if necessary, but it will BREAK YOU. Temptation? Screw that. The demon's going to put a gun to your head and force you to burn down the courthouse. Consider 'natural order' and 'sustainability' - BANG! The demon's blowing up that pretty grotto. The smarter the demon, the more order they see everywhere. Burn it down. Destroy. Unlike the real phenomenon of thermodynamic chaos (which doesn't seek to destroy but actually seeks to homogenize space and matter), a demon needs more than just an act of destruction - it needs the rubble and debris to NOT be cleaned up and cleared out. It's the unordered chaos that must remain.
Need more coffee... more tomorrow!
How do you keep the party from going Blood Meridian RPG - i.e. killing everyone in town and burning the village down?
ReplyDelete@The Grumpy Celt - Well at starters (no matter the rules' system) PCs probably can't. There are high level NPCs there who will punish the players for such an action.
ReplyDeleteOnly if the players move off Hommlet and go into the Temple (if you take on he full module) will they reach levels where they could wreak havok and not have Burne, Rufus and co. be able to stop them.
But the real question is "do you want to stop them?". Why would they do such a thing in the first place? Are they prone to chaotic or even straight out evil actions like that? Maybe that is the style of this campaign? Maybe this ends up as an opportunity to teach them "action/reaction in my game world" kind of things. Or maybe that spins off into a new campaign of WANTED posters from Verbobonc to Greyhawk and outlaw PCs running around...
In one ran through Hommlet, where I had more players than I could shake a stick at (13-14 players to a party of 20 peeps), I ended up allowing them to split, with a cunning evil player getting his barbarian to convince some party members to take the side of Lareth. I would lie if I said that I did not enjoy that.
@Grumpy: Don't stop your players. Just make sure that the NPC's (ALL the NPC's) can respond with the same freedom.
ReplyDeleteThe person most likely to hunt down and punish your players is Lareth... attention from Verbonboc will most likely come to investigate and whatever plans he has are now trashed. He will likely try to forestall even Burne and Rufus' actions to get his hands on the characters. He will likely assume they are operating on behalf of an unknown faction or power and will want answers.
FRIDAY, JULY 1:
ReplyDelete[below are just one idiot's opinion]
One level down from cosmological questions, we have the World of Greyhawk itself. Here's where Canon starts stepping on a DM's dick. Mostly because there were just too many cooks messing with the soup.
Emridy Meadows. (wiki link)
It's got the 'Great Battle' aura that works for fantasy, but it isn't part of a 'Great War': the events leading up to the battle have to occupy a great deal of time and space (amassing force and building the temple), and for someone new to Greyhawk, wading through the waters of GH canon just sucks. T1 should be something that is truly modular: village, moathouse, done. ToEE unfairly glues Hommlet into the larger ToEE story - great for selling Greyhawk products, lousy for a homebrewer, and really stabbing the 'modular' concept in the heart.
Transplant time. I want Hommlet and Zuggtmoy in My campaign. I have a scalpel - where do I cut? Questions:
* Why is the battle so far away from both Hommlet and the Temple?
* How did the forces of good let evil amass an army serving demons?
* How many good aligned nobles on Oerth were asleep at that switch?
* Is it all too Epic? Is it more fun if it's more localized to a region (and thus easier to drop into a homebrew campaign?)
* Druidic following is EVERYWHERE in the Hommlet. Why are druidic themes, folklore so absent in ToEE as a module? With Cuthbert and druidicism, there's a English, Irish folklore sources to be tapped. T1-4 DOESN'T USE ANY!
* Village #20 is the Church of Cuthbert. It's a relatively new presence. Shouldn't there be some tensions between 'The Church' and the druidic following? The key text mentions Terjon, who wants to be adventuring and is jealous of Y'dey. (we have to wait for Module T2 for her stats, though!) It says that Y'dey is on a quest and 'left unexpectedly'. This is good mystery food, but T1-4 has Y'dey pretty settled in (the mystery and hurry are gone).
* Village #24 is Jaroo's grove. Pretty powerful druid who looks after the 'needy' of Hommlet, but if anyone would be sensitive to 'unnatural' presences, it would be him, right? NOT UTILIZED!
* #13 at the Village - Davl - is a servant of the Temple and reports activity to a 'brigand courier'! YEP, THE RETURN OF EVIL IS SO 'SUPER SECRET' THAT HE USES A BRIGAND COURIER!
* If we scale it down a bit and relocate events, does it offer more flavor to Hommlet and the Temple in the aftermath? If the Great Battle occurs on the Temple grounds...
* Can we work around the history of the ToEE's construction? Is it possible that the Temple structure wasn't built by Zuggtmoy/Iuz but was there from a previous (or even ancient) kingdom?
* Finally, none of the Village's occupants have any connection to Emridy Meadows - at all. There's historical precedent for warriors settling in an area close to military campaigns, and yet not a single character has an ancestor or relative associated with the Battle. Emridy Meadows, as we recognize it, isn't present in Hommlet. There are no crumbling monuments to it in Hommlet.
* In room #11 of the Traders' Establishment key, a small black scarab holds the glyphs TZGY and is indicated as a pass in the Temple, but there is only a 20% chance for a SAGE TO RECOGNIZE IT! This gives the impression that the Temple is all but forgotten, even by sages. The ToEE, as a module, has the Temple's occupants very busy with factions, etc. without much contact to the outside world. Doesn't make much sense.
Just from the above, it would have been better for Mr. Gygax to rewrite T1 as part of the supermodule...
I'm reading! :) Keep it up and I'll give this post it's own page!
ReplyDeleteI'm on it... try to do as much as I can every morning with my coffee.
ReplyDeleteIf I can empty enough of my notes into these, I can scratch a project off my bucket list!
Many thanks for suggesting this - it's a very cool idea and I never thought a comment column would be readable!
OK, past Hommlet (in the supermodule) we have page 27, "Interlude: Hommlet to Nulb". We get a little more description about what happened, but we also get:
ReplyDelete"Having accomplished most of your goals, you must now look elsewhere for yet greater challenges (and commensurate rewards). If agents of the Temple were still active in Hommlet, then there must certainly be work for you at that fountainhead of wickedness."
* Because there's so many Temple operatives working so secretly in Hommlet, we must go to the Temple... OK, it stands to reason that further investigation is required, but characters completing T1 are level 2 or 3...
...and they should go right for the Temple...
...that took an army to bring down...
I can't speak for everyone, but on MY planet we call that 'railroading'. I love Gygax's work, but page 27 of this 'supermodule' is where it nosedives...
What would be better? Well, given how Furyondy and Veluna take such an interest in events of the Temple, characters at 2nd level could take a trip to a garrison to report their findings and make contact with more forces of Good/get more background about the history of the Temple. They might ask an 'official' historian (and not some Hommlet druid) what happened. Perhaps they'll get the truth or another part of a mystery. A full 'city module' isn't required - people of importance would want to prevent any panic about the Temple's resurgence.
This could be a perfect event to introduce Thrommel and Greyhawk politics - wouldn't it be interesting if Temple spies or Veluna nobles, fearing that the Furyondy/Veluna 'axis' wanted to keep the 'status quo' of perpetual border disputes with the nation of Iuz? Would T2 have been better if the real 'missions' for the characters involved human affairs and the Temple itself was still basically 'in the background'? This could offer many kinds of adventure, including the authorities hunting the 'wanted' PC's ('they know too much!').
It's tough to have a 'mystery/investigation' module with a lot of raw adventure to it, but not impossible. With PCs at 2nd/3rd level after leaving Hommlet, there should be a LOT more fact finding and learning of backstory/Emridy Meadows. There's TSR precedent for a chain such as this - the Slavers series of 'A' modules.
We expected module T2 Temple of Elemental Evil, and got this supermodule: T1-4. It feels like it's missing T2 and skipping to T4!
How much experience can really be gained in Nulb? It doesn't seem to make it easy to bridge the experience gap between T1 and confronting Zuggtmoy, although the module is (deliberately) integrated into Greyhawk as a setting (alienating homebrew use!)
If module T2 - Temple of Elemental Evil was targeted for levels 2-4, involved a lot of investigation and 'mood buildup' and led to a Temple visit, PCs still aren't likely to get inside - but at least PCs get there. T2 could culminate in rooting out and nullifying the Greyhawk influence of Temple operatives outside the Temple, even if such influence was to powerful entities in Furyondy or Veluna.
T3 - The Elemental Keys could be about finding (a) particular artifact(s) allowing entrance (perhaps Goldenskull wasn't kept inside the Temple but safeguarded elsewhere!), and wouldn't require railroading if the characters were already (falsely) accused of 'treason' and being hunted.
T4 - The Lady of Fungi begins with entrance to the Temple and reaches Zuggtmoy. Throughout the 'T' series, the assumption is that the 4 classical Greek elements are what are referred to by Elemental Evil - an assumption that proves to be dangerously incorrect!
More on the 'Interlude' Fail tomorrow...
Sunday July 3rd:
ReplyDeleteT1-4, Page 27, 'Players Historical Notes'
This starts with 'The following is a summary of information assumed to have been obtained from various sources in the village of Hommlet...'
What?!
Does that not feel like we're 'skipping the role playing part'?
* The Cult begins on the shores of the Nyr Dyv. Cool. No problem (what's more 'pulp' than an Atlantean lost city at the bottom of Nyr Dyv?)
* Then... 'the cult was based on the premise that the elemental forces of the universe are Chaotic and opposed to mankind, and are thus Evil.' Huh? Natural forces aren't controllable by puny humans... OK, but it doesn't offer a real explanation of the Cult origins. The pre-Temple cult isn't connected to Zuggtmoy (per the text), but demons making a bid to control Greyhawk historically allows civilization and gods to make more sense!
* In the boxed 'history', the third paragraph (to me) points out a total failure. It mentions raids by the cult to build its wealth, and states: 'Captives from those raids were brought back to the Temple to serve as human sacrifices (children to the fire, men to the water, and women to the blackest Evil) or to slave their lives away in bondage.' So much for that 'Disney' vibe that TSR was going for, huh?
- The quote above makes little sense to a 'young' players but admittedly carries a lot of 'adult' concepts, indicating that this was written for at least young adults.
- The rest of the module is really a 'cowboys and indians' game of Good and Evil. There is really nothing in the module that presents an attempt to 'turn' characters to the 'side' of evil.
- My previous comments above about Demons and Chaos neglected levers to make them 'content', and chief among them is pleasure. Lots of it. The whole megadungeon part of T1-4 doesn't carry a lot of symbols portraying this. Would it have been better for TSR to slap a pre-emptive 'adult' sticker on this baby and make it a real horror show from the view of conventional 'high fantasy' culture (and a break from Tolkienesque things altogether)? I maintain this should've been a boxed set, actively promoted as 'adult', and sold over the counter in a limited run. I would've paid whatever TSR asked for this product back in the day, and I know I'm not alone.
- Finally, as 'adult' as the concepts above may be, there is nothing in the entire module that tries to truly frighten players. Nothing. There are better villains in the G-D-Q or A series, there is more weird in S4, and more creepy in WG4. For the 'greatest evil' of Greyhawk, the Temple's inhabitants:
...are broken up into vengeful factions but aren't all that chaotic.
...don't seem to really be trying to free Zuggtmoy.
...aren't really motivated by pleasure and influence.
* The historical notes continue to say that 'the neighbors of the Temple grew tired of these depradations. All Good, both Lawful and Chaotic, banded together to form a mighty host.'
What a frigging fairy tale!
- First of all, look at the maps again... what neighbors? Bandits have to ride noticeable distances to wreak havoc (and would be observed doing so!)
- Banditry and 'evil' wouldn't be tolerated, and would be rooted out early on!
- What the hell was going on in Furyondy/Veluna that so many raids occurred? Raids that took captives, threw children into fires, and submitted women to the unspeakable would most certainly have brought about complete revolt among 'common folk' if their leaders ignored them!
Tomorrow, some ideas for a different kind of megadungeon...
:) :) :)
ReplyDeleteMonday July 4th:
ReplyDeleteLet's light a few candles here, about the Temple's 'comeback':
1. ACTIVE GROUND: If the Temple is 'active', it should operate in greater secrecy, including the mundane things like food and water.
- So many living things in the temple, but there's not a lot written about how resources get in.
- Players would have the option to track 'mysterious carts travelling at night' to visit the Temple. The 'Elemental' theme can be pushed into more agrarian ideas... underground. This can have the 'mystery/Scooby Doo' dynamic, or could contain the eerie Lovecraft kind of Innsmouth/Mi-Go weirdness.
- From Hommlet, characters might find that a caravan was missing, or simply resolve 'missing stuff' disputes, which could point them to Nulb.
* OR *
2. QUIET GROUND: Let the Temple be 'inactive' to surface dwellers of Greyhawk except for the cult activity for human (and well connected) agents.
- Let the active part occur completely underground, as the Great Battle has rendered the upper level and most of the dungeon levels a mess.
- Even if #1, above, was chosen, there is a missing piece: we need something that makes 'external' cult activity have a significant gain or purpose. Perhaps its a magical item, or particularly vile treasures that can only be transacted in secret. If we consider Zuggtmoy, fungi, Lolth, spiders, and Nulb; then I would put forth that perhaps a new kind of poison was used (perhaps used in a murder of the owner of a 'missing' caravan?) Greyhawk is certainly 'high fantasy', right? A new kind of poison could be earthly enough. Possession of such a substance (even while investigating for the side of Good) would be serious 'evidence' of wrongdoing.
- If we skip the megadungeon as it stands, we can have Zuggtmoy and her 'beloved' operate to create a sprawling cavernous and chaotic world beneath it. Zuggtmoy is wide awake and of great intelligence and knowledge, just imprisoned. An army of Myconids, molds, and jellies can be cultivated beneath the Temple. And for 'badass' adventurers... how about going single file through a labyrinth of caverns like the movie The Descent. Remember that Zuggtmoy is all about organic growth of all kinds. Molds, jellies, and break out those disease rules... horrible death awaits. We can use the megadungeon concept, but Zuggtmoy's 'world beneath' the Temple is much more haphazard and chaotic - and massive. In the imaginary printed version I see in my head, the maps represent a booklet twice the size of what was published, and many places will be hard to get to... imagine a Temple to Zuggtmoy hidden down there accessible only to (intelligent) slimes and molds. What do they sacrifice the Zuggtmoy?
- The more that the Temple and Zuggtmoy are forgotten, the more success she will have in utilizing her new 'army' to reach the surface - at a distance from the Temple and using the druidic/agrarian themed folklore. Who is the Green Lady and why do sacrifices to her increase my harvest? What are the mysterious 'helmeted men' that move around at night in the surrounding areas?
I think you can see the kind of stuff I'm seeing - the published megadungeon is huge and great fun by itself (with decades of players that have had some great fun with it), but it's very formulaic when compared to what Zuggtmoy could be and what she represents. It's Gygax's most 'self-conscious' adventure (i.e. very much directed to TSR expectations of how it would be used).
More ideas/options/themes tomorrow...
Tuesday, July 5th:
ReplyDeleteBefore returning to the 'interlude text' in T1-4, let's think about some Famous Monsters:
(a) Frankenstein: Humans creating life. a Golem, but (in the text) one that can think/act/question on its own. My old man told me as a kid, "it's about a monster, and it's not the guy stitched together..."
(b) Dracula: Stoker's text has Dracula as something akin to a mystical animal, and not all that chaotic - just driven. Popular in its time due to Victorianism, and the Urban Fantasy stuff is popular for the same reason...
(c) The Mummy: Egyptian mysticism. Primarily a love story, though. The 'rebirth' of Osiris at his wife's hands is certainly a powerful myth...
(d) Zombies: George Romero successfully 'Americanized' them, but I'm thinking about Voodoo roots... slavery = death?
(e) Demons: Big, bad, winged bastards from Hell certainly work, but consider how scary Pazuzu was in The Exorcist operating from within a little girl. Eastern and African demons are of great interest to us for this project.
(f) Lovecraftian Aliens: Many HPL monsters are uncaring aliens, superior to us - and ancient. What about the ToEE and 'when the stars align'?
(g) Dragons: Another set of winged ancients that appear in so many cultures it's a symbolic archetype. Connected to The Devil, below?
(h) The Devil: Watch that Bible carefully... the Devil in later parts of the Bible = temptation/corruption into its service or away from God... a different symbolic character than the Old Testament villain, which is not specifically noted as The Devil... it is The Serpent (much more animal/nature symbol, and of greater use for what we're doing here.) (Trier's movie Antichrist - 'Nature is the Devil's Playground'...)
(i) Changelings: Heartbreaking myth, as it requires an entity responsible for 'switching' children. How many deformed children were abandoned to become feral 'monsters' of fairy tales? Phrenology existed until 1900 - the belief that behavior and appearance are components of behavioral 'destiny'... and not limited to childhood! Think about Kevin McCarthy running through the streets in Invasion of the Body Snatchers...
(j) Fairies/Elves/Gnomes: That's right! From an agrarian/folklore standpoint these are monsters! If you're walking through the forest and you spot a circle of stones, so you step into it? These can be beneficial spirits if catered to. For Elves, consider that in folklore, they give with one hand and take with another. If I divide the symbolic 'mass' of Elven folklore into 'good' and 'evil' elves, what do I get? The good part is for Tolkien's high fantasy angelic 'vulcans', and the bad part points to another popular subset: the demonic Drow. From a medieval farmer's viewpoint, anything from the Fey world is suspect, another force that can be negotiated with for favors of 'a good crop'...
(k) Freaks: Along the thread of (i), consider abnormality/deformity in a larger view - do 'the gods' or God commit to a 'balance', within an individual's abilities? This is present throughout fiction and media: compensation. Doctor House from TV (built on Sherlock Holmes) is crippled (as is Johnny Smith from King's Dead Zone). The 'broken' shaman that can commune with spirits (even evil ones). Handicaps and compensatory 'powers' abound in mythology. Consider Tod Browning, Diane Arbus' attention to people within the corrupted shells. Ride this river to the archetypal carnival and sideshow. Something Wicked This Way Comes. Pieces from parables and folklore can offer miracles, curses, and punishments to the prideful. A Demon Lord knows all these things and more! From within her prison, what revenge on the mortals who chained her in that Temple?
July 6th:
ReplyDeleteLet's return to the interlude text in T1-4...
"Notes for the Dungeon Master":
* It gives some advice for staying in Nulb. Thanks.
* It specifies that most of Nulb still needs to be developed by the DM.
* Nulb is Chaotic and Neutral Evil, as are the Temple occupants, so any attention the PC's get in Nulb is akin to looters and ruffians.
Kind of light weight... The next section is about Greyhawk as it was originally run. Familiar history to those who know of Robilar's career. I can't think of a classic module that has anything similar
The real meat is the next section: Secret History of the Temple...
"When the demoness Zuggtmoy initially conceived the plan to establish her own rule on a portion of the Flanaess, she decided to use as many 'tools' as possible, just as did her competitor (Lolth). Consulting some of her clerical servants, Zuggtmoy decided that Elemental Evil would have more appeal than a cult dedicated to her beloved fungi. Recruiting was not difficult, and soon the rudiments of the Temple of Elemental Evil were flourishing."
OK... indulge me for breaking this down a bit:
* Zuggtmoy just woke up one day and needed to rule 'a portion of the Flanaess'. No real backstory, history, ancient 'Greyhawk secrets', nothing.
* Lolth is mentioned, but the Drow backstory fits and works: the Drow were driven to the depths... and are an ancient and mostly forgotten enemy. It's good to know Lolth is a 'competitor', but Lareth is a bit more confusing now...
* Elemental Evil has more appeal than beloved fungi. Why? Medieval-ish, agrarian, 'high fantasy' Greyhawk is filled with 'good folk' who would rather worship the Greek classical elements than something that grows everywhere and is natural. TSR's version of the Druid is from a 'Roman Empire' historical model, right? A disconnect there...
* Recruiting was not difficult - which implies there is plenty of evildoers around, or druids (being such true Neutrals) are 'okay' with worshipping elemental forces served to them by a Chaotic Evil demon lord. WTF?
Right out of the gate, the 'secret history' seems to avoid centuries of inspirational material from folklore. The history of druidicism is really interesting!
Think about my previous comments about Demons, Chaos, and Monsters... aren't there better points of ignition for the Temple of Elemental Evil?
The Secret History is missing something else: mood. WG4's Temple has the creepy flavor we would want for something like this. A possible 'underworld' of Zuggtmoy beneath the ToEE could be as sprawling as a DM (and his/her players) wished it to be. Unlike the famous Underdark of the Drow, it could be much more challenging to navigate as the areas don't have to accommodate humanoids at all.
SHOTGUN ROUND! Random bits...
* The 'Elemental' part of the Temple needn't be the quad classical elements - that could be a ruse. The real elements are natural ones: the water, the soil, the sky. Even life itself can be put into such a context: Why should Zuggtmoy bother with human worshippers, when she can create her own? (perhaps the 'poison' plot element = use Invasion of the Body Snatchers to bring fear, paranoia, and a changeling theme to cult activity?
* Zuggmoy is one of the few demon lords for whom organic (albeit non-animal) life is a concern. Life literally spawns from her!
* Thrommel was taken so he could be replaced by one of her 'new beloved' like a changeling.
* The 'new beloved' are improved humanoids, refined and perfected, obedient to their 'creator'.
* An underworld beneath the ToEE... if it required considerations of material nature, then overtures towards Lolth might not be unreasonable.
More 'secret history' tomorrow...
Back to the 'Secret History'
ReplyDelete* Zuggtmoy is a demon (lady), but Iuz is a demigod. In a sense, Iuz has the upper hand on Greyhawk. He has an entire 'evil nation' under his command. The Elemental Evil partnership explanation is thin to me. Zuggtmoy needs subterranean space (FUNGI!)... a fine reasoning for wanting a 'non-aggression pact' with Lolth. Lolth's interests would lie with the Drow's future...
- BUT -
Gygaxian 'canon' attack!... module T1-4 is stated as occurring AFTER the G-D-Q chronology... WHAT?! This locks it firmly in a canonical Greyhawk timeline. For homebrewers, it puts the DM in a bind... a declaration from Gary that ToEE is part of an 'official' timeline. This is a big TSR mistake, IMHO. In contrast, T1 feels kind of timeless...
* Iuz should have no need to be involved in Zuggtmoy's schemes unless it is to siphon resources off of his enemies - without information about Emridy Meadows and its backstory I'm not sure it fits. In a way, 'Elemental Evil' would make more sense if it was entirely Iuz's handiwork - and he would be smart enough not to involve 'chaotic planar entanglements'...
* The cover art gives no indication of the 'greek element' theme; instead, it looks like TSR's 'Halloween Special'. The Temple of Elemental Evil would be fucking beautiful, appealing even to Good souls - endlessly attractive on the outside - only the innermost circle of priests and attendants would know that Zuggtmoy is a demon, right? Not easy to pull off with just demons - suddenly a real need for human agency is before us: human cultists as a 'public face' to surrounding, very druidical, peoples.
* Lolth's G/D/Q 'defeat' in the timeline makes her too weak to 'do anything', making the text of T1 (in regard to Lareth) completely 'broken'... why not brag about killing Lareth... Lolth is already 'out of commission', right? How is Lareth the 'bright, dark hope of Chaotic Evil'?
* We can understand that Nulb is 'tainted' by the Temple's influence, but Nulb doesn't have any characters in it with historical ties tracing back to Emridy meadows, either. Nulb should have some major historical 'story' to it that caused such a 'backslide' into Chaotic/Neutral Evil, right? (AGAIN, we have a great 'hook'... Nulb was once Good 'folk' and fought against the Temple, but Greyhawk politics (or perhaps Emridy didn't go as well as chronicled...) allowed the rulers of Furyondy and Veluna to blow it, and Nulb was ignored in the 'rebuilding' (or the Temple's story was 'kept under wraps') so the rise of Cult activity might be perfect to hide in Nulb (or beneath it...), perhaps a small group wishing to punish the host of Good out of motivations for revenge (that demons find irresistable to capitalize on...)
My point is that the more earthly the 'evil' and motivations around the ToEE (or capitalized on by demonic influences), the wider and more 'fluid/sandboxy' it can all be while still keeping austerity and seriousness. Without catering to 'can we sell it in toy stores', a real horror/weird/pulp/folklore/HOLY SHIT set of moments can be set up like dominoes leading to the Temple. The adventure as published railroads to the Temple's dungeon (where, to be fair, the "it's a megadungeon" enthusiasm takes over, anyway - the contents of different sections of the megadungeon contain healthy doses of Gygaxian flavor...).
Consider that, although the 'wards' that keep Zuggtmoy in are in layers (awfully tidy for something that was basically 'magic on the battlefield'...) and that the front doors are tough to get open... but why are there no divine/'mighty host of Good' consequences for opening them at all!?!?
We'll look at Nulb details tomorrow...
I'm thinking of moving T1 to pre-GDQ. What if the original ToE/Battle of E. Meadows was Eclavdra's first foray into the surface world's doings? And the original ToE really was devoted to the Elder Elemental Eye?
ReplyDeleteIf Eclavdra convinced a local ruler or two of "The Great Lolth Threat," she might have garnered some support for the Elder Elemental Eye.
In which case, the EEE cult was operating with the support of certain local political personages. (In Nulb? Still researching.)
Going further, Zuggtmoy might have allied herself with the EEE. How well known where the doings of the EEE cult, to Lolth Worshipping Drow? At the battle of E. Meadows, might those latter have fought a pitched battle, in the depths of the ToE, managing to imprison Zuggtmoy?
ReplyDeleteCould the whole of the surface world forces, been fighting a proxy battle, for allies unknown to any but those at the highest level of command?
PRE-G/D/Q: 'Elemental' as Primordial... A pre-GDQ ToEE opens it up. Module D3(?) mentions Eclavdra has no problem with Clone usage. What's to say she isn't (via cloning) really frigging old, even for Dark Elves? If Eclavdra really had such a long life with much reknown, then she (and only she) would be ideal for leading a revolt against Lolth - necessitating the GDQ primary plot line of Lolth's interest in a surface empire!
ReplyDeleteEEE: It's probably heresy to say, but if the ToEE's 'Elemental Evil' and GDQ's 'Elemental Evil' are the same (and not connected to Tharizdun as later contrived), the ToEE and the Underdark beg. to be connected.
LOCAL SUPPORT: What connection could an ancient Eclavdra and Surface rulers have? Who goes back and forth between those worlds? Adventurers do, perhaps recovering artifacts of some type? Any connection established presents an opportunity for 'intermediary characters' and a plot hook... ("I don't understand... why would anyone want to take a bronze bell from a crypt and leave everything else...")
POLITICS AND CULTS: T1-4's text includes the map encounter where PC's can find all the 'connected' people to such a cult. Political connections to Emridy Meadows need to be strong - but there is precedent for generation-spanning war history: Instructions were explicitly written to shoot Japanese officers on sight in the WW2 Pacific Campaign - if we examine the timeline, we can see that the hardened Imperial officers that ferociously charged into battle with their swords drawn might be the last vestiges of the warrior class' noble houses. In Greyhawk, the Old man standing behind a ruler's throne might know more about that battle than he seems...
ZUGGTMOY: With what you present above, where does she fit in? Does she worship the EEG? Is she his champion, or serving like a herald of Galactus? If she's a competitor of Lolth, it makes sense that she would know of Eclavdra and would support anything working against Lolth. Would Zuggtmoy, a creature of Chaos, accept imprisonment to deceive the Host of Good, rather than let such a secret slip? Aiding the EEG over the long term (and demons can think very long term) would be the 'keys to the kingdom' for Greyhawk... an EEG ascendent would grant her most vile Greyhawk wishes in return for such 'dedication'... she's a 'made man' in the EEG's eyes, and due for a reward if she were to be freed!
PROXIES: Abso-frigging-lutely! Zuggtmoy can't be hidden at Emridy, conveniently seen as the target. The 'real' task of Emridy is to seal the Temple but not to imprison Zuggtmoy - the real goal is to seal the Temple to keep the EEG out!
The handful of people who 'know' are likely to be VIP's capable of securing themselves and even a secret.
Today's warrior, though, is tomorrow's King (or philosopher/sage - consider Socrates at Delium(?))
GYGAXIAN Q1: The original conception of this had the EEG threat, an item capable of nullifying him in pieces across several worlds - the worlds connected to Lolth's plane. Lolth intended to reconstruct this device to foil the EEG. What you have could actually lead up to the original conception of Q1.
Damn. I just started running T1-4 with the Earthdawn 3rd Edition System, and have been filling in much of the same gaps in the modules. I'm throwing Hommlet and the Temple areas into Barsaive, going with the Fae as another faction in the area (Unseelie vs Free Hold Fae war in the woods). My writeup's over on the Earthdawn forums:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.redbrick-limited.com/cms/forum/index.php?topic=8061.0
This is a Great thread. ;)
@James: I've jumped from the manic train to the other one, so I'll have to come back to this on Saturday (July 9th) - I do have some Nulb stuff that might be useful before peeking into the Temple contents.
ReplyDelete@Joshua: I like the write up at that link - without the Cleric class, I imagine the focus on Druids makes it easier to cultivate a strong flavor/mood. Very cool.
Map #9 - Nulb:
ReplyDelete* Each square is 30 feet - this is very small (note that the Hommlet map - 1 square is 20 feet)
* Nowhere near as detailed - only a couple of numbered areas at all.
* The 'docks' are in the northeast section of Nulb.
* Map indicates that Sobanwych is to the southeast (any mentions of it other than the map?)
The Nulb Vicinity offers some pretty meaty encounters in the random charts: some humanoids, werewolves(!), ghouls(!)
The Nulb Militia - what force can turn out under certain circumstances.
On p. 31, 'Coordinated Efforts' it's indicated that PC's can't really open up a can of whoop-ass without serious consequences - and the agents of Good that are there won't assist. They only help a well planned expedition to strike at the Temple. OK, PC's coming into Nulb don't have too much information about the Temple, so in Nulb, they should 'build a case' to appeal to these agents. I have no idea how they are to go about that with what's contained in the Nulb section, though.
The 'Assistance and Training' section still confuses me. Burne can summon 'powerful characters from Veluna and Verbonboc' to help train the heroes, but not to accompany them. Either it doesn't make sense, or it supports that the Temple is 'politically sensitive' for an unspecified reason.
What seems like a meager write up in fact isn't, as Gygax specifies that only 'four points in the entire village are noteworthy'. (So the 'fact finding' work is confined to these four areas and the Temple itself). This indicates that Nulb is barely a village and more of a settlement. (this is important for the points I make below):
(1) Waterside Hostel - a rough tavern. Plenty of stuff can happen. The barman, Wat 'serves the Temple's Fire priests' - another contact to the Temple's inhabitants that is unnoticed?
(2) Smithy - here's Otis, a high level 'Ranger Knight' (which is interesting but a little confusing) who's an agent of Furyondy and Veluna. He offers assistance to the PCs but not much else. His secret identity is so valuable that he only joins a party for one or two adventures.
Otis makes no sense:
* Secret identity - OK, I get it. But penetrating the Temple and causing a disruption to its activities is paramount. Nulb, as a place apparently isn't all that important and neither are its Evil inhabitants, so why shouldn't an outright 'housecleaning' be performed to drive off the evildoers and establish a garrison there? Otis and Y'dey aren't about to murder everyone in Nulb, but with a small retinue of men-at-arms, they could 'rebuild' Nulb into a Good aligned settlement.
* He's 10th level with 100 hit points and some woodland helpers (sprites and owls). Along with Y'dey (who we'll get to), Burne and Rufus - it seems like there's enough X.P. among them (if they act smartly) to rout Nulb and 'secure' the upper Temple. Even if the PC's are only 2nd level, this would create a large party tactically capable to make headway into the first level underground - what they would find there should be enough evidence of Evil activity to warrant help from the nobility of Furyondy and Veluna.
(3) Mother Screng's shop: the public facade of these two 'old hags' works in the context of Nulb. Screng is Y'dey - a 6th level Cleric and Hruda is Murfles, and elven F/Th (levels 2/2). Just as with Otis, these are capable people, but the text implicitly states they don't go on adventures. A 6th level Canoness won't take on a stab at the Temple? Instead, they play spy games on Nulb and the Temple.
I'll continue with the 4th major Nulb location tomorrow - a bunch of river pirates...
Sunday, July 10th:
ReplyDeleteOne more 'major location' in Nulb: The Boatmen's Tavern and Nulb Market.
* Large, warehouse building / general store. Cool.
* Rivermen frequent it. Cool.
* Skole runs the place - a swashbuckler (5th level Ftr) and is a smuggler.
* The barmaid is Lodriss, the actual owner of the place who's the mistress of Tolub, the leader of a pirate crew, and leader of 40 river pirates.
THE TEXT DOES NOT INDICATE OR IMPLY THAT THESE CHARACTERS HAVE ANY CONNECTION TO THE TEMPLE.
Sorry to shout, but: Are you fucking kidding me? An organized band of pirates who have a good 'gig' transporting illicit cargo have no curiosity about treasures inside the Temple of Elemental Evil? Given the numerous characters that come and go and have transactions with the Temple inhabitants, an entire pirate band led my a mid-level fighter hasn't 'sniffed' out any history or current affairs around the ToEE? A bunch of pirates isn't interested in the Temple's treasures....
At the very least, these guys would want to know that the area was truly 'quiet'. Temple activity would certainly be of concern because it would bring the attention of local authorities, threatening their arrangement.
At the other end of the possibility spectrum, these guys are 'cash money' profiteers - they're pirates!. You bet your ass they're going to be all over that Temple sniffing around from time to time...
Most importantly, as characters who make their living off of secret cargoes, hidden stashes, and 'off the ledger' transactions, not only are they likely to find a way to break the seals on the main doors, they are damned likely to figure out the throne transport mechanism.
Sorry to be an asshole about it, but Gygax has some interesting characters in Nulb and then he 'meta-games' them into contrived background roles.
One last note about Y'dey: T1 mentions her leaving in a hurry. Here in Nulb, she plays spycraft to watch the Temple. Why did she leave Hommlet in such a hurry? That seemed like such a good plot hook and it vanished...
Some thoughts about Nulb:
* If this is an evil place and problematic for the Good adventurers, then more writing was necessary to clarify paths of action and more major characters needed to be present.
* If this is just a 'home base' for exploring the Temple, it would be more useful if the Nulbish economy offered more supplies.
* If this is a place that needs 'cleaning up', the writing should offer more possibilities of getting the powers that be to take an interest here and notes on flushing out evil and establishing a more public 'good' presence.
For myself, I would've liked to see the 'river pirates' be the focus of things here, with potentials for utilizing them as henchmen/hirelings. Because Zuggtmoy's imprisonment carries a 'greed' theme element, I think that mixing alignments in the party to create a little dramatic possibility would've been a good tactic, as it's pretty clear by now that only Good aligned parties are the 'target market' for this adventure. Although I'll always favor playing a Good hero, T1-4 is an example of an adventure too weighted towards this as a 'default view' and not player choice. For an evil party, the ToEE's inhabitants should offer plenty of adventure to evil adventurers - as operatives of the Temple!
Back to those pirates - having pirate help to get in, explore, and conquer the Temple's occupants could lead to a perfect setup: when the party reaches Zuggtmoy, it would be awesome to have their greedy pirate hirelings set her free!
We'll look at the Temple ruins tomorrow...
Monday, July 11th:
ReplyDeleteTemple Ruins
Lots of boxed Gygaxian description which certainly sets the mood for very cookie cutter evil (i.e. even when the Temple was active, the description indicates that the place doesn't convey anything to lure or attract people to evil. It seems to fit the illustration on the cover, but doesn't fit any of the 'Elemental Evil' themes within the text...)
I maintain the ToEE should've been glistening with what EVIL or 'weak' people want to lure them into 'the fold' when it was active - this descriptive text ought to include provocative statuary that has been smashed, great braziers that would've been kept burning, some kind of beacon for travellers, etc. The text didn't have to have graphic content to make the statement that it was a 'sinners paradise'. There's something else missing: physical barriers or preventative measures for getting to it.
Brigands set up in the Tower - the text states that the main road isn't used so as not to leave tracks, etc. For a 'mighty host', the forces of Good did jack shit to really keep people away from that structure. There was enough magic to secure (in layered dweomers) a demon lady in such a manner as to restrict her power in this plane, but no one uses Move Earth to pile twenty tons of dirt against the doors, stake spears around the perimeter, or other snares? A reading of hunter/trapper methods might've really made this a pain in the ass to get to for characters and the villains. (remember that movie Southern Comfort about the reservists in Cajun country?)
You get the idea. Additionally, there should be more wreckage and scarring all over the area (remember how cool the 'fireball scar' was on the L1 Bone Hill map?)
What Gygax does include is a lot of weeds and uskfruit that are poisonous. OK.
The northeast corner of the outer ruins has a usable tower structure occupied by Brigands that apparently are ninjas because - again - the local authorities just don't seem to notice!
There's a nice Gygaxian illusion trick concealing the real size of a bunch of giant ravens.
Tower defense:
A sizable bunch of brigands are here for a nice opening combat - complete with well thought out battle strategy. The real prize of the whole encounter is a map they possess showing entry into the Temple dungeon via a secret passage to the third level. This actually makes sense - so much so that there ought to be more passages in and out of the Temple, if you think about how large it really is. This particular passage goes directly to a nasty 'trick' in key area #335. OK.
Ideally, there would be at least two such passages for each dungeon level that lead directly to the surface. At a reasonably shallow walking incline, such passages would break the surface at a great distance from actual Temple site... and such entrances would make ideal adventure hook possibilities, as the Good conquerers of the Temple might not've sealed them all properly, and who knows - there might be one that reaches Nulb, Hommlet, or other distant locations if they were designed as 'emergency exits'!
Temple Structure:
The layout of the whole upper works is very 'church-like', which I think misses some opportunities at historical temples from around the globe. If 'Elemental Evil' was the public facing 'image' of Zuggtmoy/Iuz's plans, then the Temple really ought to reflect a four-part, or at least a more 'nature/elemental inspired' building. The whole 'skulls/death/Halloween' visage of the place just isn't scary enough...
More tomorrow...
You might find this post from a few years ago on my own blog of interest. While most of it is focused on the Elder Elemental God in G3/D3, it does go into a little speculation on how the EEG fits in with T1-4...
ReplyDeletehttp://greyhawkgrognard.blogspot.com/2008/07/dming-into-depths-of-oerth-part-iii-12.html
In addition to the link Mr. B mentions above (hyperlinked here), let me also mention a few other Greyhawk Grognard resource links:
ReplyDelete* Verbonboc Wilderness Map here
* A really nice post about Greyhawk religions here
* For extending Greyhawk notes back into historical reading, check out Mr. B's Historical Analogies here
For those that might want to incorporate a weird 'elsewhere' as the source of the Elder Elemental God, Grodogs listings of mysterious places might be useful here, and Mortellan's Articles here are definitely worth a read.
@ Joseph - It's already printed out and in my Great Big Greyhawk Binder! Great stuff!
ReplyDelete@ scottsz - Cool! I'll check em out!
Man - looks like scott got a hold of another module! ;)
ReplyDeleteGood stuff indeed - I'm another fan of T1 who felt let down by ToEE - this kind of brainstorming would have lead me to running T1 totally differently back in the day. I was not a Greyhawk junky back then - really never even got a chance to read ToEE until I got on the internet. I certainly had high expectations for it way back then, but fell out of D&D before it was released.
July 12th:
ReplyDeleteTemple Exterior: Scary... wooooooo. Whatever.
Let's quote it:
The place is huge. It extends over 450 feet north and south, and is nearly 450 feet across at its widest. The walls rise about 30 feet, supported by arched buttresses and many pilasters. The roof peak is about 20 feet higher than the walls, making the whole edifice no less than 50 feet tall.
Welcome to Disney's Haunted Castle!
OK... I'll be good... The exterior is a bit of a shark jump to me. Check out this great link about Cathedral construction (note also that a cathedral is built to house a bishop's 'seat' (or cathedra)... Zuggtmoy's throne!
Building something like this takes a while. To get a conservative estimate, let's take a cathedral in an old, busy city, like Notre Dame (a city location would represent the best availability of labor/materials).
Wikipedia gives the timeline for construction beginning in 1160, and tapering off between 1250 and 1345. if we 'midpoint' the last elements' completion at 1297, then it took around 137 years!... remember, this was in Paris, which at the time was probably in the top five most advanced cities in the world!. What would such a structure needed (timewise), if placed in the middle of frigging nowhere? Even if I pad the number to represent more difficult location/materials, I have to subtract the role of magic and infernal help to build it. I would still ballpark the construction time at a century.
So one of two options MUST be the case:
1. The Temple of Elemental Evil was a very carefully managed, long term project and the construction time was even longer than a century to keep it secret. If this is the case, then Nulb isn't just a backwater village... it's a relatively recent settlement. If this 'path' is chosen, then we have to consider the implications for just how 'chaotic' and unruly demons truly are or abandon conventional expectations and allow demons to have a radically frightening and different sense of 'time'. (and perhaps re-watch Exorcist III!)
2. The Temple of Elemental Evil was built in a relatively shorter timespan than a century, but would have certainly required powerful magical AND infernal help to build it. If this 'path' is chosen, then the dungeons beneath really should have more demons within - or the 'labor pool' fled the Temple during the great assault and are in the surrounding areas. Given Gygax's writing about the 'layers' of magical wards, I'm inclined to believe that the real 'bitch' of the Emridy battle wouldn't be targeting Zuggtmoy, but rather the 'host of Good' was trying to contain a large number of demons, sealing all of them into the Temple like trying to stuff a genie back into its bottle. This presents some interesting possibilities given the 'mashup' strategy that you're pursuing...
(a) Every 'ward' that is broken effectively releases more minor/less powerful demons into the surrounding area - muwhahahaha!
(b) The powerful wards that contain Zuggtmoy also contain other pretty powerful (and really pissed off) demonic help... muwhahahaha!
(c) The focus of the Temple is on the Elder Elemental God, right? Given the luscious rewards for such service, who says that Zuggtmoy isn't the high priestess of this Temple? It's written that demons can receive worship, but what about a demon Lady worshipping a god? Perhaps they can't worship the "new gods" of the 'alignment pinwheel' and have to direct their own service to the Elder ones... muwhahahaha!
You can see the issue raised by the exterior: time?
...more tomorrow!
Page tab added. :)
ReplyDeleteHoly crap! I thought you were just kidding. Thanks!
ReplyDeleteI'll try to tune these to the (very wise) 'fusion' strategy with DFD, etc. so they'll be within that 'theme frame'.
hi james!
ReplyDeleteif you love Hommlet, then maybe you will like this map too:
http://www.sorcerers.net/Games/ToEE/image.php?image=toeemap-withlegend.jpg
i made a copy of it, and still use with my players :D
cheers
Thanks for the map rafael!
ReplyDelete@scottsz - I'd humbly suggest following your muse, however you will.
July 13th:
ReplyDeleteTemple Size, Shape and Brigands:
Let's shrink the scale of the T1-4 map but only the main structure. The outer wall and surviving tower - leave them as they are in the original map scale. The complex grew in size over time - more like a medieval estate. The actual Temple is simply a chapel, with other structures built around it.
This will seem a bit odd at first - between the outer wall and towers and a much smaller central temple, there's a lot of space.
Fill it.
These areas would be reduced to rubble from Emridy Meadows - secondary structures no more than ground level stone constructions, assuming they weren't wood and were torched.
Picture how this looks in the DFD/Strange Winter theme. Snow everywhere. Large open areas filled with overgrown rubble. Are there tracks? What still hides in the rubble? The brigands need to have a connection to Nulb and/or the Temple... uh oh, the buzzer...
SHOTGUN ROUND!!!
* The brigands trade with Nulb, perhaps close ties with the river pirates (what does their economy look like now that a strange winter has frozen parts of the waters?)
* OR - The winter has driven the brigands to this tower to seek a minimal amount of shelter - perhaps they are competitors/adversaries of the pirates.
* OR - The brigands were previously driven out of Nulb and recently returned for vengeance. 'Saving' Nulb from their aggression (in a time of winter scarcity) = PCs as heroes in the eyes of Nulb and drawing the attention of Otis and Y'dey as well.
* OR - The brigands have stumbled onto the secret entrance but can't get past the illusion at the location underground. Like the pirates, they wouldn't mind some loot - but probably have no idea that the small 'area' they found is part of a massive underground complex.
* OR - The brigands, knowing nothing of the Temple, might negotiate terms for assisting in exploring levels underneath if the local nobility would grant them title to the land. (might seem farfetched, but if the backstory has some Machiavelli a Good aligned noble might see them as a sensible 'cover' - easy to obscure the ToEE truth by telling the local populace that stories of 'demons' were the work of n'er do wells out to scare people away from their criminal banditry.)
* OR - Move the brigands to Nulb, and have them occupy an (added) old mill structure near the docks. You could then combine Zeke D.'s presence in DFD and 'fuse' the upper works/remains of the (newly shrunken to size) ToEE/Chapel with the 'haunted lodge'/Zeke be its caretaker - the ToEE/Chapel grounds could contain the cemetery ("all these poor souls died in that terrible battle"...)
* OR - Take the Nulb characters and do a switch: Zeke is the sole resident of Nulb - everyone else occupies the ToEE upper ruins... no one's a moneymaker with a wintery frozen river anyway, right? In a DFD-mashup... it's all about finding shelter, food, and heat!
* OR - The brigands are the descendants of Emridy - the sons/grandsons of those orphaned by a battle that was good for glory and Greyhawk but they were left behind. This is their home... they never left.
* OR - The brigands were previously (and covertly) hired by good aligned forces to occupy this area to prevent 'river folk' from getting too curious about the Temple. They don't even know who Otis and Y'dey are.
* OR - Zeke isn't just a crazy old coot - he's an enchanted, crazy old veteran of Emridy Meadows, burying the dead - perhaps mentally 'gone', bewildered by his longevity (a curse upon the 'mighty Good' from the EEG himself?). Of course, if his madness could be cured he might remember things...
In any case, the brigands are a 'loose' enough 'bridge' element - might be better to put them aside for now and work on the 'top down' approach to the whole region.
Next - some druidic thoughts...
Increasingly convinced Emridy Meadows 'didn't happen' in a normal sense. Nothing adds up. Possibly a gnostic afterburn from a bad rye crop in Veluna.
ReplyDelete@bombasticus: Agreed! The Battle of Emridy Meadows is a hazy story element, really. Do things 'not add up' because of Greyhawk concerns (that a DM can use) or was it just clunky writing and/or 'canon patching'?
ReplyDeleteWhen was it added to canon? What mentions of it are there in T1's text? If all we had was Hommlet, would we even think of it at all?
Is the lack of clarity about such an epic battle due to publishing history? Was the originally suggested T1 story 'hijacked' or rerouted in a way?
I think of the single(?) 'TZGY' clue/piece in T1's text and the 'burning eye' symbol in T1. In younger days, 'waiting for' T2 Temple of Elemental Evil, I believed that the EEG in G-D-Q was going to be the focus of the T2... it just kind of made sense, but I was just a kid and I knew I was going to buy 'T2' regardless.
When I think about Emridy, I think of every tabletop that has had every convention session of storming the Moathouse. I try to imagine every homebrew version of the Temple and every possible fictional account of Emridy Meadows. That's a lot of game play accumulated over decades. If every one of those was a 'parallel history'...
I've only come up with one bizarre idea for incorporating all of it into a potential adventure.
July 14th:
ReplyDeleteDruids? Oh yeah...
'Nature magic' uses sacred places that join classical elements. A grotto = water + air + stone. Steam = fire + water. A beach = earth + water, etc. What conjunctions of elements would the Temple conceal? Can anyone say geothermal? Dig deep for the Beloved Fungi, I say!
Between the rational Greek model of elements and the raw elements of nature... plenty of folklore in that space, so pop the clutch into OVERDRIVE:
* Druids are going to be the first people alerted to Zuggtmoy's Elemental influence - and the most likely culprits for fighting it by any means necessary. Neutral = pain in the ass. Scarlet Brotherhood? Silly rabbit, Trix are for kids... It was the druidic orders that would have the balls to kidnap Thrommel, hoping to raise an alarm about 'this terrible Elemental cult' or blackmailing action out of the nobility...
* Go to Hawaii... check out this little gem of a spirit lady looking for her lost children.
* Invert the gender patterns of The Green Man - dig up any UK series modules for raw meat!
* Check out the horror in these old song lyrics!
* The Green Lady ghost of Crathes Castle?
* Wouldn't a Demon Lady love to impersonate a benevolent spirit? (I have a sudden memory of the river/little girl scene from the old Frankenstein movie...)
* Fungi? Plague/pandemic fungal infections? you're damned right! Check out some Mycosis and for dessert... Pathogenic Fungi!
* Grab a kilt and check out some Scottish ghosts to inspire a Green Lady appearing in the fields before her imprisonment (or wandering the grounds if some of those 'seals' were already broken...)
* Cold, Doom, Mushrooms, Fungi... don't get mad... get POD!
* Plant kingdom? Use a really old classic to expand this mother... OH YEAH!
* Druids maintain balance/harmony with nature - and T1's Hommlet has a primarily Druidic cast. What of Nulb, though? Not a druid in sight... Is this absense something that fits into a druidic/EEG plot structure? Did Nulb once have druids of great power who were corrupted and 'done away with?' Did they (as above) engineer a response to a threat, or did they consider Elemental Evil a competitor?
* Elemental evil would affect the earth, and water, and air - what weather changes would occur? Would the rivers sour? Strange mists? (The Mist by Stephen King... John Carpenter's The Fog) Earthquakes?
* Cult of Elemental Evil... origins (per Gygax) are the shores of Nyr Dyv... a corrupted 'nature' cult praying on the shores of the Lake of Unknown Depths... BANG! What if the Elder Elemental God isn't from the stars, but lying like Cthulu at the bottom of Nyr Dyv?
* OK... a peek at canon... Behold the Greychrondex! - the closest thing to a singular composite timeline in Greyhawk fandom...HERE and scroll to 569 CY! But the game isn't about canon, it's about adventure!...
'til tomorrow...
Ooh! Oodles of great stuff!!!! :)
ReplyDeleteAdded a link to the Cold Text Files, on the T1-4 page.
ReplyDeleteThanks!
ReplyDeleteThere may be some more nature/druid/zugg stuff tomorrow, but then we'll start looking inside...
The Battle of Emridy Meadows is mentioned in the original Greyhawk folio in the history section...
ReplyDeleteDon't have the folio, just the 83 box. :)
ReplyDelete@Joseph/James:
ReplyDeleteFrom the Greyhawk Lore text file:
[I was just wondering if any of the battles described therein were ever played out by the local crew up there in LG?... and the Battle of Emridy Meadows...]
Gygax Response:
Sadly, no. As a sort of military historian, board and tabletop wargamer, I used my imagation only to create those accounts. [EGG] http://www.enworld.org/forum/archive-threads/171753-gary-gygax-q-part-xii-11.html
From the Text of T1 Village of Hommlet intro:
A great battle was fought to the east, and when villagers saw streams of ochre-robed men and humanoids fleeing south and west through their community, there was great rejoicing, for they knew that the murderous oppressors had been defeated and driven from the field in panic and rout.
So great was the slaughter, so complete the victory of good, that the walled stronghold of the Temple of Elemental Evil fell within a fortnight, despite the aid of a terrible demon. The place was ruined and sealed against a further return of such abominations by powerful blessings and magic.
* I believe the earliest Folio is 1980. The initial copyright on Hommlet is 1979. Until the folio is released, Hommlet's 'backstory mention' of the 'Great Battle' predates the folio canon - are there subtle differences in the content of the story.
* The battle isn't mentioned 'by name' in T1.
* It's referenced has being placed to the east of Hommlet.
* 'Ochre robes' means that whatever humanoids in the ToEE's forces are not wearing the banner of Iuz.
* Gary indicates that this battle was not 'wargamed out' on a tabletop - it is a written creation only.
* Real wargame sessions have 'played parts of it out' see: http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=18776
While the Greyhawk folio should be considered 'canon', my feeling is that the Battle (like many Greyhawk elements) is still very 'loose'.
By the time T1-4 is released, I was wondering why more detail wasn't added to the story of it, or the module's people, places, and things didn't incorporate it. It is unquestionably a major event!
T1's TZGY mention gives a sage only a 20% chance to recognize it... which I interpret as meaning that sage historians living in Greyhawk (at best) know of the Battle but don't know the exact details of the Evil forces. I wonder why this is, and maintain that Hommlet's keyed items should include some kind of monument/grotto/shrine in remembrance of those that fell.
The T1 intro text's 'blessings and powerful magic' does indicate that the battle involved divine help, and so the 'proxy' fight concept fits well. It also give the impression that the Temple received the 'help of a terrible demon' but isn't necessarily a temple to that demon.
(second cup of coffee...)
ReplyDeleteJuly 15th:
More druid/politics stuff...
If an unnatural Death Frost winter has hit Hommlet, there are going to be some... problems:
* The T1 map (as published) really doesn't indicate enough farm land fields. A killer winter is going to hurt - scarcity of the worst kinds.
* Who dies? Some person or persons is not going to make it - NO ONE in Hommlet (judging from the map and descriptions) is prepared for a cold doom. It gets ugly and it gets ugly fast.
* There's the completely ignored subtext in T1: a church for Cuthbert, yet a majority of the population is druidic. A really bad winter hurts everyone in Hommlet and Nulb?
I suggested a plot involving Druids kidnapping Thrommel, perhaps to force a stubborn King to remove the 'Elemental Evil menace':
* The main 'theme' of this is that druidic interests lie in nature and protecting Greyhawk (or any world) from otherworldly threats. Clerics of Good are seen as those 'combatting demonic evil', but a druid is the class that would be most sensitive to the unnatural. In any case, a druid's 'duty of care' would have no concern for human politics.
* This would only be the work of a very small group in the upper ranks, possibly even of a single planner. The smaller the group, the greater the guarantee of secrecy, but...
* What if Iuz learns of such a thing? Would he attempt to 'score points' by revealing it to his bitter enemies in Furyondy or Veluna. un-frigging-likely!
* Iuz might intervene by slaying the Druids responsible. Having a future king removed from the scene entirely, after all, prevents the union of F/V kingdoms. Aside from Iuz's evil nature, he is a leader and politics is his business.
* Any druids who would commit such a daring act are certain of Zuggtmoy's presence and influence... and are scared shitless. Iuz definitely wants them out of the way - and being involved incurs Zuggtmoy's debt - a coin to cash in if the ToEE really succeeds. Iuz has demonic contacts - he's not going to worry about Zuggtmoy turning on him. Iuz certainly makes the druidic elders of the region well aware of what has transpired! Given T1's text, perhaps these regions were druid strongholds in past times.
* What would this mean for an 'alternate' Emridy Meadows? Well, the mighty host of Good is going to band together, that's for certain. They'll confront and destroy the ToEE by all means necessary... absolutely... but...
"Mark well that black day, as it was known to the Paladins in full banner that morning that no druids would see their homes again. The knights were tasked with taking down the Temple and the great sorcery of the grandest of druids would seal in the demonic influence. But once the demon was bound, those imprisoning her would be slain and commended to the flames of the Temple itself."
An unpleasant subtext of human 'Good' powers turning on pagans that they believe have turned on them... all of it swept under the carpet.
That's why Nulb has no druids, AND THAT'S WHY NO ONE FROM THE CITADEL OF EIGHT WOULD GET INVOLVED IN THE BATTLE OF EMRIDY MEADOWS!
But here's the real kicker: Thrommel was a Lawful Good paladin, and if he's dead, he's certainly not at rest, so skip the silly 'vampire' bit and allow him to be a spirit not at peace. Was Y'dey's 'urgent' move connected? Did she deduce some of the unpleasant history for herself?
Would even Iuz tempt fate killing an heir that could unify two whole kingdoms? Were Thrommel found, a rallying cry would rise up in two entire 'nations' to destroy Iuz, right?
All of this flies in the face of a 'sylvan' Greyhawk history, but the above suggestions show that not all needs to be as it seems.
Tomorrow we'll peak inside...
July 16th
ReplyDeleteTemple Ruins
The grand entrance has the antipathy ward on it, but the side doors can be hacked apart for entry...
Inside the vestibule, the party starts:
The walls are plastered and painted with scenes befitting the nature of the Temple - disgusting acts, killing, torture, enslavement, robbery, thievery, and unspeakable things. The creeds of the worshippers here are all too evident. Evil is flaunted and lionized.
So right within the front doors, we have what amounts to a shrine to evil actions. Great for a Halloween haunted house, but there is nothing 'elemental' in the themework at all. This is basically the 'Temple of Evil'. It lionizes evil actions... this description is mis-placed, as this would be the kind of temple you would see in the Abyss. It offers no temptation to commit evil. No rewards are suggested or promised. No 'good' or 'proper' entities are shown, so there can't be a theme of (even infernal) rebellion, no less an earthly one.
I think this sucks. There's no Clive Barker. No Stephen King. No Lovecraft, even. It's 'cookie cutter' evil - and this cheats the players because there is nothing to scare them at all. If this is about chaotic evil, and only power and force are 'controls', then there isn't even a visual message warning of disobedience!
Look north...
In that direction you can see the nave of the Temple. The pillars to either hand are of a pinkish mineral, shot through with worm-colored veins. Their arches lead to an unremarkable pair of lesser side aisles. The columns supporting the archways, as well as the arches themselves, are worked in bas relief. As with the frescoes in the entryway, the scenes here are ineffable, vile, filthy. It is probable that this area was reserved for the lowliest of worshippers.
So the 'lowliest' worshippers (who in any power structure or tribe would be the 'newbies') aren't shown anything to make them embrace more fully the awesome grandeur of the Temple? Of Elemental Evil? Of Zuggtmoy?
The text, however, does contain a theme - a really piss poor one. It is:
Here is where evil lives and you must destroy it.
Nothing frightening. Nothing elemental. Nothing even really that demonic. The bizarre columns made of pinkish stone with worm colored veins are actually more unsettling, as they are otherworldly.
There's a further reason why these areas don't fit into what should be a small temple for an elemental cult:
There's no sense of family. Cults thrive because they synthesize familial/tribal/belonging in their members. Nothing in the 'Halloween horrorshow' vestibule area or columns displays anything that would make a 'lost' soul feel a sense of communion.
An attempt to peek at Greyhawk from the eyes Elemental Evil helps here. Why should I (as an evildoer or 'sinner') join such a thing? What's in it for me? It offers indulgence in 'sin'? How? What safety does it offer me? What protection from consequence? Not enough detail is given in the text to accommodate desire in any who view it.
I did some reading about early Ireland and its druids. Using that as a baseline (nature, nature, nature) for Greyhawk's druidic background (which also gives insight to the cleric as an entity), we'll take the reverse of that as a starting point.
Layers of background themes will inevitably fuse and spark in contact - during play: Nature versus the otherworldly. High civilization (a ranger knight - even 'frontier' people are in knightly orders!) versus wild druidic beliefs.
Your ToEE deserves quality meat, particularly as it is a smaller structure with a very long history that has seen the passage of much time...
...and yes, we are fixing a 'master's' work here.
A final note: anyone is welcome to join these comments. Druidic stuff tomorrow...
I think the uh, "dance of druids" can go on forever but ultimately generates a more interesting module. Let's take another round to the deosil:
ReplyDeleteTo me the question boils down to whether "elemental evil" reflected a perversion of Nature or was in fact too naturalistic for the largely domesticated mistletoe-wavers circa 1985. As we recall, the druid evolved from an amoral and somewhat blood-stained ("barbaric" followers, GH, 34) clerical monster into a sort of vegetarian Lorax class serving the sophisticated "True Neutral" moral code. Human or animal sacrifice, fertility rites, even polyamory were painstakingly avoided -- and by T1-4 completely forgotten, taboo.
Arguably those aspects of the Old Faith crystallized into what we now consider "elemental evil."
"Ineffable, vile, filthy." Sure. Sounds like something Ed Woodard would spit out in The Wicker Man. But again, like the presumably pornographic tapestries in the Fane of Lolth, unspeakable *in what direction*?
"Killing, torture, enslavement, robbery, thievery." We talk about these things all the time. This is what player characters did in the old days. This was their JOB.
Was what TZGY offered a return to the barbaric days (in german die frühen Musik) before the alignment chart civilized the game and set "good" and "evil" in their boxes with "true neutral" doing double duty as super-moral synthesis and primordial urge?
Is that what makes the EEG both "elder" and "elemental" always and why even the druids hate him? [I do still think the "nature" the druids worship is actually a super-psionic yellow mold at the center of the oerth, but that's beside the point.]
Where were the hierophant druids pointing us, out in their strange elemental nodes?
Or did the horned green lady take us to a different place entirely, a world before the game? What did the alliance of good actually destroy when they scrubbed the temple of everything that actually offended them?
(But they missed those funny pillars.)
Who is she really?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrsGpPA5TBA
Was actually looking for this one, which I prefer:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsDIvH0sVWM
If you were to somehow separate Obad-Hai into his "aligned" aspects, I suspect you'd get something like St. Cuthbert and Iuz "the Old," who loathe each other and have such a complex relationship to modern druidry. Iuz was eventually born of a witch up Perrenland way....
Hi Bombasticus and welcome to the party!
ReplyDeleteI'd like to know more about GG's approach to Druid's, before he wrote AD&D and made alignment such a B&W and literal manifestation of the realities of outer planar forces.
@bombasticus/James:
ReplyDeleteI'm working on responses to the excellent points. I found this series - haven't read everything thoroughly yet - it might be of use for these points:
History of Alignment in D&D:
part 1
part 2
part 3
part 4
part 5
part 6
part 7 (3E focused)
part 8 (4E focused)
I skimmed through these. I'm not sure how useful the 3E/4E material really is (if you're going to allow 'unaligned', then why not just dump alignment...)
I do think the Neutrality and Druid interlocking is more a problem than a flavor for a 'nature' class of character. It also assumes that nature, as a concept is neutral. This is nowhere near what I'm reading in the mesoamerican stuff - where every god, and to some extent, every consciousness - must contain good and evil components.
I think bombasticus has led us into deep water, and I'm all out of bourbon.
Come up to Maine, we've been brewing wormwood.
ReplyDeleteStill catching up with a module I never really liked, but went back to T1 this evening. Circa 1979, it looks like Gygax considered the primary values of druidism (now called "The Old Faith" as of T1-4) were charity ("good work for the needy ... donations toward the needy"), hatred of evil (Jaroo's mission statement) and a vague vegetarianism ("flowers, nuts, berries and garlands of leaves"). If I were to have to guess what alignment they were, I'd say they were on the G side of the scale and the TN stuff was just lip service. Fair enough.
The church of Cuthbert also has a poorbox and a strange vegetative motif ("growing ferns and other plants are behind this statue, while to either side are tree stumps from which the clerics officiate") not mentioned anywhere else in Greyhawk canon. If not for the unique "salvation is best served via a cudgel upside the head" approach and they fact they pray indoors, they look exactly like way the druids are written up.
While heresy against later canon, if I were running it, I'd make Cuthbertism -- the "new" faith -- a reformed and explicitly "lawful" (good/neutral) version of the druidic religion. Explains how the worship of Cuthbert can be considered a "common" religion throughout the Flanaess: Cuthbert is one of the phenomena left behind as the old flan ways recede. (Iuz and Elemental Evil may be others.)
The 570s seem to be the exact moment at which the new religion is starting to crowd out the old in this obscure corner of Verbobonc. Look at all the new Cuthbert buildings going up, all the new middle-class arrivals setting up shop, even converts.
But wait a minute! For all the talk in this module about giving to the needy, Jaroo is filthy rich -- his gem hoard is bigger than all the treasure in the Cuthbert temple and practically on a par with what Rufus and Burne have left from their dragon kill. How does a holy man who really cares about the needy accumulate 16,000 gp in "cash?
Thanks for letting me crash here, J. Be warned, I get chatty sometimes.
ReplyDeleteAs you know, the druid started out back in Greyhawk (Feb 75) as an NPC "monster" class of human, much like bandits or nomads or what have you. All we really know about their doctrine at this point is that it was "a neutral-type religion" distinct from either clericism or anti-clericism and that their magic is weird (initially modeled as MU 5-7 + C 7-9). They seem to be nomads (15% in lair) and usually travel in tribes of "barbaric" followers. With nothing else to go on, people who wanted to use them had to model them on 1970s visions of historical druids: blood sacrifice, reincarnation, sacred groves.
By Eldritch Wizardry (Apr 76), playable druids emerged who, interestingly, did not replace but were "similar to" the monster of the same name [sic] described in Greyhawk. This is when they become identified with Nature as an impersonal abstraction and become experts in magic focused on "fire, natural forces and living things." They are, however, apathetic to human society and oriented toward revenge, not mercy:
"not as involved with humans or with helping them as they are in protecting plants and animals ... have an obligation to protect woodland animals and plants, especially trees. Unlike the obligation of lawful and good types toward others of this sort, the tendency of druids will be to punish those who destroy their charges, rather than risk their own lives to actually save the threatened animal or plant."
And while "druids will not slay an animal if it can be avoided," blood sacrifice is not explicitly ruled out for ritual functions. The fact that they have the Finger of Death and can use it in extremis proves that they can kill, and their allowed weapons are mostly geared toward shedding blood: sickles, scimitars, daggers, spears.
As of the Players Handbook (May 78), they become "the only absolute neutrals, viewing good and evil, law and chaos as balancing forces of nature which are necessary for the continuation of all things." This is a strange evolution toward a meta-morality, but the "balance" is already tilting toward "weal" -- "nonetheless, druids serve to strengthen, protect and revitalize as the usual cleric does."
The historical analog becomes explicit as well "druids can be visualized as medieval cousins of what the ancient Celtic sect of Druids would have become if it survived the Roman conquest.
Unearthed Arcana takes them into the elemental planes, but we're already pretty far afield at this point from the rude barbarians of Greyhawk.
Bombasticus, you rock.
ReplyDeleteBetter to leave the AD&D alignment as just theory.
Cuthbertism is more specific and flavorful. Love it.
Does Jaroo represent the Old Faith considered as such relative to Cuthbertism?, yet he's part of a newer, more sympathetic druidic wave that would have pure contempt for Elemental cults?
The treasure observation is sweet - I totally overlooked the treasure accumulations! Instant plot hook: why does a druid have that much wealth?
This all could present three 'eras' of this vicinity: an Elemental Era, a New Druid era, and Cuthbertism. I can then weave into the Elemental era as the following:
The old (and more savage) druidic beliefs seemed like a 'weak link' in the fabric of Greyhawk. It was these believers in the stars and stones that found the fertile soil of the area worth building a temple on. They were a harsh people, but familiar with scarcity and hardship, as well.
From north towards Nyr Dyv came a more brutal, and superior, migration of people who felt that the more raw elements gave them greater power. These 'northmen', with their sacrifices, were believers in the One God - the Elder Elemental God - who returned their devotion and sacrifices with power over the elements that could starve, freeze, and punish with drought. One of their patron goddesses would be the Green Lady, who offered sustenance out of darkness. The temple of the southern faith would eventually fall to the despised northern cultists.
Most importantly for this thread's purpose, even this long, epic slice of history is easily transplantable and doesn't require the full Greyhawk setting.
And lest we forget: "Druids serve only themselves and nature, they occasionally make human sacrifice, but on the other hand they aid the folk in agriculture and animal husbandry. Druids are, therefore, neutral — although slightly predisposed towards evil actions." (EGG, Feb 76, so reference is actually to the "monster" version)
ReplyDeletehttp://dragonneanddangerous.devhub.com/blog/521447-a-history-of-alignment-in-dd-part-i/
Told you...
ReplyDeleteNeutral = pain in the ass
Great point! All we know is that Jaroo is new in town too, up from the Gnarley ... which seems split between willingness to pursue closer ties with "civilization" (friends of Verbobonc) and those who look toward the Faerie Court of Celene.
ReplyDeleteMaybe the former are the "sophisticated" N/G Players Handbook druids -- the "new Old Faith" created in reaction to the more rigidly aligned sects -- and the latter are the "archaic" N/E type.
His avarice could be played as a vestige of the "old Old Faith" lurking beneath the vegetarian veneer ... or even a civilized vice from living too long among the settled people.
Love the new reading of the migrations. Do not want to invoke the endless alignment flame war!
Very nice 'paths' for Jaroo's wealth!
ReplyDeleteA more 'civilization friendly' Old Faith works perfectly with T1, and opens doors for ToEE options.
Yeah... the alignment 'issue' is a frigging drag. I can understand DM's who just skip alignment entirely...
July 17th - part 1 of 2
ReplyDeleteSome thoughts in regard to bombasticus' excellent input:
* Alignment just... sucks: The Gygaxian alignment system once again seems like a roadblock to digging and re-implementing a more robust background material... (think this is bad? Try navigating it with mesoamerican sacrifice...) Is alignment (as Gygax systematized it) such a frigging hurdle that it (indirectly) contributes to the longevity/popularity of B/X (and clones) over AD&D? (even though AD&D had a wave of interesting settings)? Versions that are pre-AD&D seem much more popular in the 'Old School' corner)?
* 'Old' and 'Older' faiths: bombasticus opens up a new approach to this content's geographical history without limiting the potential for research. The terms 'old faith' and such are more relative. This gets right to the heart of it, IMHO. What is savagery when viewed under the lense of survival? I'm reading about Ireland, where two entire 'peoples' were wiped out by plague and bones indicate people may have been buried alive. Sacrifice seems savage, but it's not hard to visualize that a small pre-civilized village would rather bury a very ill person in a ritual than put the whole tribe in harm's way. Is ancient savagery a relative thing or is it simply beyond judgment without real understanding? (brought into the content of the ToEE... what sages in Verbonboc would ask such a question? or have an answer?)
* 'Graphic' vs. Mood: bombasticus points out the issue of 'direction' in terms of graphic/potentially shocking material. this definitely is a failure of T1-4's text. Does the vestibule carry such images (which should have their 'direction' clarified) to shock the viewer into some kind of submission (like 'the treatment' in Kubrick's Clockwork Orange)?. Without knowing the direction and how they are 'unspeakable', they become valueless to the DM in setting a particular mood. The T1-4 vestibule, as published, is Gygax 'writing himself into a corner' - he can't go into detail that can set a tone without stepping into a censor's crosshairs... even though we know he was a capable enough writer to do so - he pulled it off in WG4's Tharizdun temple which was published 3 years prior!. Did WG4's poor sales influence the ToEE text?
* Adventurers' Job: bombasticus mentions the brutality of a typical character's 'job as an adventurer', which is another flashpoint for flame war, but pertinent to the content of 'civilization versus savagery' - a useful theme for a DM - especially for this content! The ToEE 'story' offered TSR a chance to bake in some options for addressing it - indeed the 'evolution' of these areas (Hommlet, Verbonboc, etc.) could've been made much more fully realized by doing so. I believe Gygax was capable enough to pull this off and still keep the 'region' modular enough for use to homebrew DM's. This, like the vestibule, seems another victim of circumstance.
* AD&D's incorporation of alignment into cosmology puts every DM in a certain stranglehold: Either:
(a) The chart has always been in effect, through all of time, and the struggle between good and evil is futile - making every Paladin and Demon Lord a chump because they are just part of an endlessly turning wheel!
-or-
(b) The chart represents a snapshot tied to a particular 'slice' of the game world content - having separate 'slices' that are prior to it and after it could be fertile ground for a DM! Bombasticus' suggestion that there could be periods before (and thus after) this 'orderly cosmology' really opens a lot of doors for players who want to get involved in extra-planar quests and adventure!
..continued...
July 17th - part 2 of 2
ReplyDelete* The EEG/Elder/Elemental: If we lift the ToEE/EEG 'out of Greyhawk', we have freedom to incorporate Kuntz's Dark Druids in raw material for mashup. For example, the Tarrasque Spike (adapted into the 'filigreed rod' in WG4) is used by Druids serving Tharzdu'un to control The Tarrasque, the personal pet of the Dark God. This brings this Godzilla-like monster in from real folklore, as the Tarrasque was seen as an elemental creature - a manifestation of nature's rage, etc.
* Themed Demons: Pre-history of Greyhawk/mashup campaign - cosmology. Is the EEG ancient (Cthulu-ish ancient)? Is Zuggtmoy? Can we fabricate a vague cosmoview including demons? I go back to the demonic 'themes': If Q1 is used as precedent (and planes bend to the will...), then why would a Demon Lord/Lady have 'spiders' or 'fungi' as a focus? What if the Prime Material plane is origin point for EVERYTHING, and demonic drive to occupy and dominate the Prime is a sort of 'homecoming'. Before good and evil there was only natural and infernal. Good and Evil are later traditions, and this supports bombasticus' idea of a 'pre-alignment' era!
* Hierophants: A recent post of druids 'becoming' elements is compelling (Dammit, I didn't bookmark it!). The Hierophant seems reactionary (i.e. no one likes a level limit!). Bombasticus nails a point - what does a druidic 'seer' see in the whole ToEE/Emridy affair? Should visiting one be included? Given Otis and Y'dey's presence in Nulb (as published), it would work to have a secret hierophant in Nulb!
* A Different Place Entirely: These are awesome questions. To handle them, we should take a look at some of the 'assumptions' in classic Greyhawk adventure material:
1. For a world that has so many gods, clerics, temples, and sacred places, there aren't a hell of a lot of rules for divine service. A world with so many gods, but do they have enough presence?
2. Greyhawk, as a world, is ice cream for hell - more netherworldly problems, places, demons, devils, and 'tainted' monsters that are damned near everywhere, yet there's not a lot of demonic possession, which is researchable!
3. Greyhawk is already a messy mashup of historical pieces. We let a lot of inconsistency slide because it's a fantasy game, and no DM should do 800 hours of history reading for a Friday night, six pack and pizza 'kill the frigging orcs' romp. If game companies could've published more 'middleman' material, instead of turning Greyhawk canon into a frigging soap opera, these (great) questions and concepts of 'order vs. chaos', 'civilization vs. savagery' would have a wider context of options, suggestions, and solution sets...
* Why Didn't Zuggtmoy Flee? A simple question. Why did she stay long enough to be imprisoned? What was so special about THAT temple that, with Good forces storming it, crumbling it, and invading it, she remained?
Can this question be tied to the structure's history?
What if the ToEE was not built by Zuggtmoy's cult, but was a prior 'classical/hierophant' druidic construction which was seized by evil through the use of force or coopting certain high ranking druids eons ago. Note that, by sealing Zuggtmoy in there, the forces of Good/Civilization have effectively nullified the Temple for anything else... including druidic worship!
* Obad-Hai: bombasticus strikes again with a clean kill! This deity is in the 1983 Greyhawk set, but isn't mentioned at all in T1-4. What. The. Hell.??? Following bombasticus' inquiry, this god, not Cuthbert or Iuz, would be directly invested in the defeat of an Elemental Evil, even if the EEG isn't utilized!
(I'll try to get some more Irish druidic notes for tomorrow...)
All good things. I like this module much better now.
ReplyDeleteLast quick thing on alignment, I remember that at about this time EGG was busy pumping out the Gord books, which bring the metaphysical "reality" of the outer planes alignment wheel to the foreground of the game, at the expense of older interpretations of Tharizdun, (true) neutrality and so on. So it shouldn't be surprising to find that kind of thing here.
Very fertile idea on why the vestibule may be so gross: for the initiates, this is the normal state of affairs (nature red in claw? the law of the jungle?) but for outsiders there would be a psychic overload factor like in Clockwork Orange. This is ripe territory for something like "demonic possession" right here: the intrusion of previously unthinkable imagery into a once-normal Greyhawkian mindset. Once you see this stuff, you can never unthink it. It's in you.
Still a question why the invaders didn't scrub the offensive material out, though ... unless they did in fact remove the bits that offended them most, and were either relatively OK with this stuff or wanted to conceal the absence of the missing bits.
Maybe the parts they wiped clean are exactly the things you're looking for that made "elemental evil" so seductive in the first place, and that's why there's no psychic shock (much less purple lightning).
Dark druids definitely.
Not for me to rehabilitate demon queens, but strikes me that the gap between the TZGY scarabs and ZGTY herself may be more than one of EGG's fun with variant spelling games. If the horde moving southwest from the Nyr Dyv worshipped a green horned lady (call her TZGY or even ZGMY or something) and their "oldest faith" was eventually uh demonized as uncool by the civilized alignment-wheel cultures of the Velverdyva valley, then it's easy to imagine how that once-relatively-benign goddess could have fallen.
The Cuthbertists would have been eager to spread the story of how there was a mushroom monster lurking at the bottom of the elemental cult and that the entire thing was designed to ensnare otherwise perfectly good people in sin, etc. Modern druids of the Gnarley would be extra-eager to find a place for themselves themselves as the forests are chopped down (Cuthbert priests preach from dead stumps) and so would be happy to scapegoat those other elemental people from the northeast.
And eventually, trapped in the "temple of elemental evil," there's not much left of the green goddess -- or anyone else down there but ZGTY the demon.
It would explain how she knows Lolth, since both presumably suffered a similar degradation, Lolth at the hands of those damn faeries in Celene.
I bet more of this will come to light when we get to the weird poem of "The Two united, in the past." Divine wedding of Iuz "the Old" and TZGTY in the ancient days? Coniunctio oppositorum at the center of the wheel?
@bombasticus: Yes! Cut down to the bone:
ReplyDeleteThe Gord books: Ahhh yes... what's Hidden there? closure? apology? wishes to start clean? Some day it'll go under a microscope...
Vestibule: Perfect! The key text could include an attempted possession... perhaps one unable to finish because of Zugg's 'state'? Meshes with making this whole place 'forgotten' from history... from a sage's perspective, what are those 'evil' paintings really worth in gold?
Good Invaders: A compelling thought: the paintings are already censured, and still are unspeakable but no longer have a real 'effect'!
TZGY: At T1's writing, the TZGY scarab was 'open ended' - just as likely an insignia of Elder Elemental Gods as a demon lord. The 'eye of fire' in T1 (and in GDQ) appears to clinch T1's original concept as the ToEE involving the EEG. If we use this, then Lareth could be Lolth's 'inside man' into the ToEE re-awakening. Per explorations of forums, it seems Zuggtmoy (or Tsuggtmoy) was shoehorned in, but Gygaxian 'writing history' is even more cloudy than TSR's publishing history... On the surface, though, if the Greek 4/element theme is taken, each of the letters in the scarab could indicate an element, and other scarabs might feature a different order, as fire was indicated as being the most 'chaotic' and uncontrollable of the elements...
In any case, Zuggtmoy could certainly slide into a medieval figure/patroness of decomposition, fertility, growth - all things necessary to a farmer! Agricultural folklore and superstition...
Cuthbertism! Your proposed 'middle' period of 'positive druidicism' fits between a harsh/evil 'elemental' era and the 'new way' of Cuthbertism. Love it. A DM can dig into ancient rites for the elementalists, newer paganism for research into Greyhawk's latter day druids, and St. Patrick folklore for Cuthbert. Opens doors and is very accessible without hundreds of hours of research! Kudos for catching the 'tree stumps'... certainly a far cry from savagely protecting a tree's spirit!
Demonic Losses: For a world that's 'swiss cheese' with planar gateways and other weird ass phenomenon, the 'hellish' can't seem to get it all together. Gygax pits Zuggtmoy and Lolth as competitors, but I'm not so sure that sticks very well. Lolth is subterranean with her by Byzantine, jaded, goth Drow. Zuggtmoy's world is... nonexistent without the ToEE!. Brief mentions of her plane seem to 'steal' the juice from Juiblex's conceptual pot.
Poetry: How do bards and various Greyhawk inhabitants seem to find out this secret info and write up these 'spoiler verses'? Bastards.
Coniunctio Oppositorum: You and your 'fancy city talk' - another worthwhile nugget for DM's following these comments (James, your hermetic knowledge will be useful here): Anima Mundi (with the four sacred beasts) and the role of the Magi. Plug this into the existing notes and your own design decision set and this'll blast a goddamned hole in the tabletop.
A few more links as backup: Z's name!, Lolth and EEG?, EEG/DF Thread, Zugg post (read the comments)!
The score is:
hobbyists 1, Nerf canon 0
MVP to Bombasticus...
You guys Rock! The whole evolution of religion thing, the condition of the outer planes being one of flux, not static truth...
ReplyDeleteActually, you've solved the AD&D alignment problem! Can't believe I didn't see it before! I'm kicking myself! On, SNAP!
I'm kinda out of it at the moment and this is more than a little rambling, but...
If we remove any ideas of "truth," remember that the gods are real and that they're running the show, it all falls into place.
A more swords & sorcery idea of fantasy religion, as well.
The gods are imposing their viewpoint on the planes and all of creation. And their ideas are often whacked as anyone else's.
True Neutral, for instance. The Druids. Been bothering me for years and years. If we consider that the Druidic True Neutral is not an objective Truth and not the "real" manifestation of Nature, but just another philosophical viewpoint, created and enforced by the gods, then there's no problem. Save for the poor souls (and pc's) trying to live by such a code.
Or, IF the gods created Nature, especially if ALL of the gods were involved, then no wonder it's all so whacked!
So, the gods are running the show. Creating and laying down their various laws. And it's all subjective, messy, contradictory, etc.
In AD&D, Good and Evil, Law and Chaos are real, black and white, etc. I've always considered, based upon my reading of Mr. Gygax's words, that the alignments were supposed to be objective truths in the AD&D game world.
Now, I have to go back and re-read everything! Does all of it flow from the will of the gods?
Not objective Truth, just the gods imposing their imperfect p.o.v.
If it all goes back to the gods and we remove the idea that the gods have a monopoly on, or a total apprehension of Truth, then that puts a different spin on things entirely.
Are the gods interpreting Truth, or, if they're responsible for EVERYTHING, then they created TRUTH. TRUTH, created by these whacked out, crazed gods...
And, the AD&D Alignment System makes sense. Or, rather, it doesn't make sense for a reason. The gods aren't perfect, as any reading of the material makes quite plain!!!
And Gary Gygax may have had his tongue, rather firmly planted in his cheek, when wrote the alignment system.
Which, we've all been bitching and arguing about for years!
The alignment system is treated like dice rolling, as a mechanic, but if we follow bombasticus' idea, and treat it more like a middle layer of content between the mechanics and the 'adventure', it becomes much more useful and definitely more fun!
ReplyDeleteI always think of the pulp/fiction roots of TSR's creators. Consider everything in Appendix N... is there a great truth to be found? yep!, several of them, in fact!
muwhahahaha!
July 18th: part 1 of 2
ReplyDeleteA couple of Irish details, for flavor (these are from a single source I got at a used book store but was put 'on the pile' for my L1 Bone Hill/Lendore Cold Text series...) I'm looking at these through a mythology lense, and not a religious one... the ToEE history can assimilate some of these for notes on the Elemental Epoch, the more 'austere' New Druid era, and finally Cuthbertism.
* Pre-history:
A couple of 'epochs' are mentioned... (found similar info at this link...
1. Patholonians - Were wiped out by plague.
2. Nemed - also undone by plague.
3. Fir Bolg - my book mentions being allied with Fomorians, although Wikipedia does not. Of significance to ToEE is this goddess!
4. Tuath Dé Danaan - their goddess Danu could be a good 'Green Lady' resource (Zuggtmoy portraying a goddess?) Note the 'magical storm' this people used to try to keep the Milesians away!
5. Milesians - when these conquerers came, the text states that the Tuatha (above) retreated to the "Otherworld" tied to this world through bogs, lakes, and stones. (mwahahaha!)
* Celtic Intro:
Beyond normal social organization, were the aés dána, the creative, intellectual, priestly, bardic class. This included the filidh (poets), the breitheamh (who memorized law), and the druid.
Note that druid, in this context, is the plural. A single member of this strata is a druí (according the druid wikipedia page, this word had an Old Irish meaning that included 'sorcerer'.
* St. Patrick and druids:
The text claims that the earliest biography of St. Patrick has at its center a battle of mystical powers between Patrick and the pagan druids!
* Back to Milesians: Per a work known as the Lebor Gabála, the chief priest of the Milesians spoke the following when touching Irish soil:
I am Wind On The Sea
I am Ocean-Wave
I am Roar of Sea
I am Bull of Seven Fights
I am Vulture On Cliff
I am Dewdrop
I am Fairest of Flowers
I am Salmon In Pool
I am Lake on Plain
I am Mountain In A Man
(figured the visuals/terms might be inspirational...)
...continued...
July 18th: part 2 of 2
ReplyDeleteThe Milesians had the 'support' of the goddess of sovereignty, Eriú. [side note: Druid belief/symbols ascribed rivers, hills, etc. with predominantly feminine identities, something a Demoness could also capitalize on...]
* Female Myths for ToEE:
Various mythical stories are ascribed to Macha, who is associated with war, horses, and sovereignty. The curse upon the men of Ulster myth might be ToEE worthy. There's also Brigid, representing fertility and poetry. Note that the goddess Danu has a name that, in Sanskrit, means 'the flowing one'.
Zuggtmoy Note: As Demoness Lady of Fungi, Zuggtmoy would likely have a special weakness to music and lyricism, as plants respond to sound and rhythm... Lady Z is the ultimate groupie!
* A Bit of Archaeology:
Quoting from the text...
Archaeology tells us much of pagan practices. An important element was deposition: the burial of precious possessions such as weapons, bridle bits or jewelry as gifts to the gods. It could also take the form of sacrifice, both animal and human: the position of a woman's body, found in the Curragh, County Kildare, suggests that she was buried alive. Also notable is the importance given to the human head as a trophy and source of power. There are shrines made for human heads and many references to their powers in the heroic epics."
A couple of ToEE notes relative to the excerpt above:
* Buried = precious. On a grand scale, if Zuggtmoy's cult did not build the Temple structure and its dungeon levels, could a prior 'Elemental' era druidic civilization have spent over a century to build an underground honorary burial 'city'?
* Could the Temple, as a structure, been a massive sacrificial gesture to the Elder Elemental God, where select 'chosen' individuals - the best and the brightest, of course, were sent for service (or slaughter?). These 'best and brightest' would have a high place in the 'Ancient Faith', right? Does Lareth's high abilities make him 'worthy' of this mystically charged ancient 'status'? Would it make sense that his real purpose isn't serving Lolth or Zuggtmoy, but a personal faith that awakening the Temple will grant him his destiny?
* Note that Zuggtmoy can appear in a number of different 'physical' forms as she pleases, but (per Gygax's T1-4) her 'true' form doesn't have a 'head' whose absence would slay her. It would take Lady Z less than five minutes to kneel before an Elemental Era druid and ask to be beheaded - when she still lives, speaks, and wreaks havoc, it's instant worship via a 'miracle'...
* Given the prominence of 'head = power' in the belief structure, could the purpose of the ToEE be to protect, enshrine, or awaken the head of the Elder Elemental God?
July 19th:
ReplyDeleteBack to the text - The central altar...
The pillars here are white marble, veined with ugly red. The altar block of pinkish white marble is roughly oval something over 7 feet long by 5 feet wide.
Wikipedia states the 'Pure white marble is the result of metamorphism of a very pure limestone or dolomite protolith. The characteristic swirls and veins of many colored marble varieties are usually due to various mineral impurities such as clay, silt, sand, iron oxides, or chert which were originally present as grains or layers in the limestone.'
Red coloration in the columns might be iron oxide (rust = iron!), but the pink marble could be from Tennessee or Georgia (the locations don't matter, but the fact that both states have very fertile soil does!)
The shape of the altar - an oval (from the Latin word for 'egg'), so you've got a stone age fertility and generation symbol in the central altar itself.
Cirlot's Dictionary states "Oval shapes are related to things biomorphic" and it doesn't get much more biomorphic than Zuggtmoy!
Altar text: Its top has a hollowed out portion resembling a human form, with legs apart and arms away from the body. This depression is stained a darker color than the rest.
Gosh... so cryptic... The lack of anything to restrain the 'victim' could indicate 'willing' sacrifices laid down on that altar for the last time. The lozenge altar (growth! womb!) with a 'human sacrifice' setting is a bit strange here - just my opinion. The layout of the place is 'church like', the vestibule is profane, and in the middle of a very open space is a human sacrifice 'kit'... Huh?
More: Just north of the altar is a circular, marble-lined pit - a well of sorts - 20 feet in diameter. Shards of broken crystal vessels lie about the well, near the altar, and scattered about the floor. A crystal knife with a broken blade lies atop the stone block.
Between the altar and the pit, we've got a lot of cheese, here. Bloodstained altars make for great fantasy art, but either someone didn't fulfill a 'cleansing' ritual after the event, or Zuggtmoy likes the blood to mix (in which case there should be a lot more staining everywhere). Just like the outer appearance and the vestibule, I don't see enough 'elemental' themed stuff (mounts for containers for water, charred spots for fire, etc.) and for an oval (ovum/egg/fertilize) altar, there's nothing about growth (carvings on the altar, possibly runes, bas relief sculpture, etc.)
Another missing piece of rubble is something - anything - that would influence sound: drums, chimes or the rubble of their mounting mechanisms.
The crystal fragments... need sand, heat, and warmth to anneal. Where were these made? Outside the temple, or below?
The altar is (per the map) just south of the pit (which conceals a passage lower into the dungeon). The pit is centered in both east/west and north/south... a way down to area #210 (guardian/elements/etc.)
Nothing notable in the columns but number and position could carry a meaning. What sacred number for Zuggtmoy or The Elder Elemental God?
James, your Angel Generator might be of use for helping to deck out the altar area, as well. Carvings in the altar of Good spirits suffering defeat by EEG/Zuggtmoy!
More importantly for an Elemental -> -> Druid -> Cuthbertism wave of history, an important item is missing! The Stars
Was a cosmic 'deadline' behind the Temple's activities? Did the host of Good react with urgency in CY 569 because CY 570 was significant, etc.? Is Y'dey's sudden flight from Hommlet because she knows a different calendar (or is an ex-druid?) 'Stellar' urgency can add desperation...
...and fear.
Vestries and such tomorrow...
Pertinent to this content and a recent post elsewhere:
ReplyDeleteEvery year my father grew tomatoes. You have to refresh the soil, composting things like old egg shells to replenish the minerals in the soil. Beyond this, a single trick was really effective: the largest tomato grown in a year was set aside, and its seeds collected. After a few years, the genetics of this take hold - big tomatoes, all the time.
You take the 'best' tomato, and put it aside so that the seeds can be kept, instead of eating it. A child can do this.
Identification of the best tomato requires acknowledgement of 'non-equal' but similar elements that can be 'chosen'.
To not consume every part of the harvest requires a defense of a potential result over a certain one - and thus a bit of imagination.
The 'best' tomato is still consumed by rot and time - easy to ritualize as any metamorphosis is.
Keeping the seeds until the next season necessitates a sense of large scale time.
Who guards the precious seeds? Are they placed in a special spot?
The 'Bounty' that results from these activities might be ascribed to 'the gods' without an understanding of genetics and artificial selection.
A simple and common task for a gardener holds a lot of roots that can be expanded into an entire religion.
A good gardener knows that as the tomatoes get larger, more compost is needed to replenish the soil. A cycle forms and expands, requiring more organization and - shock! - ritualized treatment to be successful.
Being a 'creative genius' is not a requirement for effectively adding robust, human elements to a game world.
Ritual and religion are as natural as a sunrise. No expert can tell you more truth than the shape of your hands and the soil under your feet can.
Now I need more coffee...
Well, that's where Lareth comes from, then!
ReplyDeleteWow, this is genius.
ReplyDeleteI have never run T2-4 simply because (as has been pointed out here) the plotting never quite added up for mine. It didn't sit right.
Now I can see fitting Zugtmoy in!
@bombasticus: Just one of a few options for the mysterious Lareth. We take for granted his service, but what a plot line it would be if the 'return' of the Temple was just his own personal ambition.
ReplyDeleteIdeally, he's dead at the 'end' of T1, slain by a bunch of filthy adventurers - thus his well engineered plans of 'using' two major demon lords will unravel! mwuhahaha!
A couple of other plot possibilities:
* He's 'created' - Zuggtmoy needs more worship if she is ever to break out those magical bindings - she must have more faith! Not being able to rally more followers, she sets about creating them... think fungi, and Invasion of the Body Snatchers... extra points for writing the secondary plot: Thrommel wasn't kidnapped for politics - he was meant to be replaced with one of the 'new children of Zuggtmoy', The Beloved! (players would never see this coming... even Dopplegangers are rare...) mwuhahahah!
* He's 'a gift' - The one thing that is downright impossible is accord and peace between demons, but Zuggtmoy needs external help with subterranean and discrete knowledge of secrecy underground. Lareth is Zuggtmoy's gift to Lolth. See the Tsavo maneaters for rough notes on Demons actually working together - the DM has the element of surprise... mwuhahaha!
* He's 'the beachhead' - Whether it's another Greyhawk political entity, another region, or another world, Lareth is in this area on business. The Temple's history might allow him to conceal something that is even more disruptive to Greyhawk's alignment-balanced continuum. Is he from Earth? Blackmoor? A Mars-ish world in the Greyhawk solar system? What does it mean 'the bright, dark hope of chaotic evil'? He could be a Galahad-like 'antihero'? The flaming eye is associated with the EEG, but... didn't Derleth use a flaming eye in Lovecraftian material? The Elemental Evil cult is trying to save Greyhawk from something even more Eldritch? mwuhahaha!
* A psionic - note the 'commune' mental link area later in the dungeon. Zuggtmoy can attack psionically, but what if Lareth's high ability scores have granted him some strong psionic power? Would he be a match for Zuggtmoy, and if so, wouldn't that effectively make him leader of the most dangerous cult/belief since Tharizdun got benched? mwuhahaha!
For my personal write up, I favored the first one - merging Medieval 'harvest' and druidic/post-druidic beliefs with 'body snatchers' and other monster themes like the Triffids.
For me he's just the "perfect tomato."
ReplyDeleteA druidic fertility figure co-opted into the demonic ecologies.
But the cloning angle goes down some odd and funny roads:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mR-bALy5oE
@bombasticus: It's definitely 'over the top', but (as Frank N Furter exclaimed):
ReplyDeleteWait! I can explain...
Here's the set up:
1. The word 'Greyhawk' is loaded now. You mention it, and a set of style/content expectations hits. The DM drops this in passing.
2. The actual content for the sessions uses Gygax's T1-4 as a base, but meshes in a powderkeg of other adventures, mythology, and history.
3. Because of the expectations of #1, and the rich soup of potential events set up for #2, the sessions can have a lot of color and detail. DM's/players who want a lot of 'immersion' can have it, but even those looking for travel, intrigue, and mystery can have that, too. The harshness of an unnatural winter is a villain unto itself.
4. This sets up a level of consistency over sessions. Dump them into the milieu and let them kick up (cold) sand in that sandbox.
5. The set piece is the Temple, but the real 'engine' of activity can be beneath the Temple, not in it. Once they get to areas that are at the core of Elemental Worship, they discover an entire 'zone' beneath the temple's dungeon, and a family of Zuggtmoy's new 'Beloved'...
6. Between the EEG, New Druid, Cuthbertist, Nulb, Secret Furyondy agents, Hommlet's heroes, and a Death Frost Winter, characters can have their hands full just trying to determine who's real or not. Overlay enough characters and their motives and something pops.
Similarities to John Carpenter's The Thing are highly encouraged. The Temple's danger is played off against the Winter's effects. Use the Kuntzian principle of 'forced character tests' to push players to decide what their characters real values are when confronting different layers of evil/harm.
If Elemental Evil can be stopped, the New Druid/Cuthbertist dynamic is still in play, nobles in Furyondy/Veluna have a lot of explaining to do, and Thrommel's remains must be found (indeed, the cursed winter could be the work of a powerful spirit not at rest!). Plenty of room to keep going...
It's all over. Your lifestyle's too extreme!
ReplyDeleteThe "tomatoes" angle explains why she took Thrommel alive in the first place...and incidentally why he can use a chaotic sword. (Yes, I know it was a typo, but why not run with the errors as printed?)
Wasn't there an evil twin of old Robilar running around years after he penetrated the inner temple? I forget where Eclavdra canonically got all those clones....
Strange collapse throughout the module as law/chaos becomes the primary axis, pitting Iuz against Horned Society and making captive orcs happy to fight alongside the party because they hate the chaos of the TOEE so much. Maybe the wheel is tilting....
@bombasticus: (damn RHPS music stuck in my head...)
ReplyDeleteTaking Thrommel: Very, very nice work. What a trick... the worst thing for Greyhawk is for him to get out! He's one of them!
Robilar's twin: Ugghh! Ugly Canon alert! (it's here!) My eyes! my eyes! Still a good idea, though...
Eclavdra's Clones: Still like the idea of her using clones for immortality of some kind, like Scytale from the Dune series... the Drow could be so much more... We could put a spin on her clone use as part of a 'growing a double' subplot. Easy way to throw characters for a loop, too.
Law and Chaos: Still crunching on the alignment wheel as a 'snapshot' in an evolution! Makes me think of a couple of possibilities:
1. The EEG isn't evil, but a pure neutrality power/god/whatever.
2. Greyhawk (or at least the parts that matter like the ToEE) have been surrounded by Good as the alignment 'balance' has been achieved and must be preserved by the 'newer' gods!
3. To counter all these Goody two shoes running around, The EEG must secure the presence of a chaotic evil entity during his Great Awakening. On the other side of the wheel, what is more hopeful than a young paladin whose marriage will secure peace between two Good/Lawful nations? Both go on the block for the Head of Seasons to live... again!
4. Should the EEG be replenished/awakened, the wheel consumes from the inside out, and even the greater gods of the extremes feel the pinch. (Spell levels begin to fall, losing an upper spell level one per year) Greyhawk reverts back to its ancient Elemental ways...
5. Such a thing could do as you suggest - make even the 'evil' forces of Greyhawk lapse into chaos as their powers diminish - the ultimate in the study of scarcity. Strange bedfellows across the continent...
RANDOM THOUGHT: If Thrommel is dead, and secretly buried in the vicinity, and we mashup ToEE with DFD...
Does that mean Thrommel is part of the Wave of Doom when it hits?
mwuhahaha!
July 20th:
ReplyDeleteLet's skip to the sinking throne...
[...]The floor, steps and walls are black basalt, highly polished and gleaming. Four steps lead to the upper platform, and upon it is a great throne of purplish basalt, with leering demon faces and carved grinning skulls.
Yes. Scary. We get it.
Above the throne in Common, though, is:
THE POWER OF ELEMENTAL DEATH
BRINGS MORTALS LOW
BUT RAISES THE NAMELESS ONE HIGH
'Elemental Death'... this can be used unchanged if we use the EEG as the focus of devotion.
There are a lot of ways down below on this level, but the indestructibility of this throne makes it an artifact - and who doesn't want an artifact?
If (hypothetically), we remove the megadungeon levels below, this 'elevator throne' could be spliced into a different map complex like Mr. Bloch's excellent CotMA. If this is done, it might be useful to then 'allow' the destruction of this throne (or to have it already partially destroyed). This opens a vertical shaft down to different levels no quick, desperate retreats, though!
Players still would have a 'selection freedom' for their explorations, but will need plenty of rope (pirates of Nulb have plenty to sell, along with some curiosity about why PC's are buying it...)
The Dungeons
Let's take stock of how to approach the encounters for useful mining:
* We want the EEG, not Zuggtmoy, to be the focus.
* We're splicing ToEE with Death Frost Doom and 'Shroom.
* We are not bound to any of the dungeon levels below, so we'll treat the text as raw meat to mesh into things.
* We have a lot of background possibilities for 'human' politics within the borders of the fine lands around the ToEE. Enough options, I believe, to de-emphasize the dungeons for the players. (i.e. the Temple is now a smaller chapel, druidic themes are no longer just background flavoring, and enough potential characters integral to the ideas are outside of the dungeons, we no longer require a massive dungeon complex unless it fits with a consistent history of the Cult, the temple, and the peoples around it).
T1-4 states, in the Dungeons 'section', that players should gather info. This might fail, and so Mr. Gygax includes a lyrical poem the 'background' players who get 'lost'. The idea is good and is easily placed on the fly by a DM in almost any location (carved into a stone, found on a parchment, etc.) The 'clue' poem reads:
The Two united, in the past,
a Place to build, and spells to cast.
Their power grew, and took the land
and people round, as they had planned.
A key without a lock they made
of gold and gems, and overlaid
with spells, a tool for men to wield
to force the powers of Good to yield.
But armies came, their weapons bared,
while evil was yet unprepared.
The Hart was followed by the Crowns
and Moon, and people of the towns.
The Two were split; one got away
but She, when came the judgment day,
did break the key, and sent the rocks
to boxes four, with magic locks.
In doing so, She fell behind
as He escaped. She was confined
among Her own; her very lair
became her prison and despair.
The Place was ruined, torn apart
and left with chains around the heart
of evil power - but the key
was never found in the debris.
He knows not where She dwells today.
She set the minion's path, the way
to lift Her Temple high again
with tools of flesh, with mortal men.
Many now have gone to die
in water, flame, in earth, or sky.
They did not bear the key of old
that must be found - the orb of gold.
Beware, my friend, for you shall fall
unless you have the wherewithall
to find and search the boxes four
and then escape forevermore.
But with the key, you might succeed
in throwing down Her power and greed.
Destroy the key when you are done
and then rejoice, the battle won.
We'll have a speculative Death Fungi Doom version tomorrow...
July 21st:
ReplyDeleteMy last entry ended with the 'clue poem' in T1-4. Such things are good for a DM, not just players. Throwing some verse around can spark an idea or two. So let's consider our idea 'soup' and put one together (note: I cheated on this using the 'rhyme' section at this link.) The numbered lines have notes below...
From Nyr Dyv's deep and ancient past, *1*
hungering for grim repast,
an Elder Eye - great sight was found
to scorch the sky and soak the the ground.
The innocent, unknowing souls,
who roamed the meadows, lived in holes,
knew only Master's truth and power,
sacrificed until they cowered.
Good hearted, so they were enslaved, *2*
and horror'd at beliefs depraved.
To compensate for natives glow,
He kept a demoness in tow. *3*
The Elder Master's nights and days,
did rule with cruelty's natural ways.
But then the other ancient kin,
helped Man's rebellions to begin! *4*
With pagan faith in land and water,
they liberated sons and daughters,
defending from the Master's magic
and scattering his servants tragic.
The demoness of growth in dark,
scratched a warning on their bark, *5*
and built a temple small but strong
to force druidic ilk begone!
As new gods helped man's spirits soar,
and shined on noble toil and war *6*
against the Master's faithless folly
they made allegiance with the Holly! *7*
So elder druids, youthful priests,
pushed Elemental's Cult to cease,
and cornered Master's graceless skull
into his ancient temple's hull. *8*
A battle fought on meadows clear,
did wipe away the Faithful fears. *9*
The demon priestess failed her liege,
while noble knights did lay their siege.
So honor Crown and Hart and Moon, *10*
who blocked an Elemental Doom.
But watch the winters every year;
keep druid's Wreath and Cudgel near! *11*
For Master's Skull was never found,
and mysteries are still abound. *12*
Did Thrommel fall or flee the field
or die beneath a holy shield? *13*
Fear not the Elemental's might,
but flee from Lady Green at night! *14*
1. The origin of EEG could by a Ryleh-ish place.
2. Humans as slaves of EEG in pre-historic times?
3. If humans contain a natural goodness, does EEG require a demon to 'balance' certain rituals?
4. Demi-humans aided rebellion against EEG.
5. Zuggtmoy as high priestess? Is a certain tree still bearing some cursed runes?
6. Is the origin of the 'new gods' a past rebellion against the EEG?
7. Original 'new god' faiths reached a pact or covenant with the 'old ways' of post-Elemental druidic cultures?
8. Masonic symbology utilizes maritime symbols. The temple's hull could be its dungeon?
9. The 'clearest' meadow in the vicinity would make a clue to where Emridy was fought, should something be buried there...
10. References to Greyhawk powers, but Crown and Hart could be replaced with 'Earth' and 'Sun' for a more druidic vibe.
11. Does Hommlet have a banner or icon - or have a fraternal Order of the Wreath and Cudgel?
12. Odd reference to a skull - we assume the EEG to be huge, but perhaps the skull is the size of a helmet (quite an artifact/relic!)
13. Thrommel as leader of Emridy's forces - he disappears from the battle. His sword is certainly special, but what of his shield? Possibly this turns up and sets in motion a search for him or his remains?
14. Around Hommlet and Nulb could be the folklore of 'Lady Green' - a spectral version of Zuggtmoy that is appearing more frequently because the ToEE's 'bindings' are beginning to leak out her essence!
The Point: Even these 'details' and supplementary tidbits are part of adventure creation...
We'll look at some Dungeon level stuff tomorrow...
July 22nd:
ReplyDeleteThe T1-4 dungeon and our mashup...
Given that the 'Temple' structure is now considerably smaller, with more of an 'estate' around it, how could this change the dungeon below?
1. The 'practical/utility' spaces that might've been on the ground level are likely to appear in the first level of the dungeon - mostly near the steps connecting to the surface level.
2. If Zuggtmoy or the Elder Elemental God is imprisoned, now is a good time to start thinking about details for that.
3. Beyond #1 and #2, above, anything we place, assimilate, or create on the first dungeon level would've been subject to the wrath of the terrible fighting that shut this place down.
#1 is pretty simple - even other pieces from other published or home made works can be put into place there. The regular functionality of areas like a hearth, meditation area, sleeping quarters, etc. (Note the Elemental Cult might have its own practices for preparing food, slaughtering for meat, etc.)
#2 means getting our hands dirty. We need to finalize the roles of the powerful in the Elemental Cult. If the EEG is imprisoned here, we'll want to outline details about his manifestations, essence, and how it interacts with the multiverse. But ideas abound... see below.
#3 gives us a hint to begin thinking about that 'host of Good' and just what they were doing here. Was imprisonment their goal all along (the righteous are 'jailing' this Elemental being), or was it a compromise after finding that the brave Knights and Archers didn't have a snowball's chance in hell of slaying something so mighty?
SIRENS! DUCK AND COVER... IDEA BOMB!
For #2... Can we steal from Clive Barker's Cabal in the Books of Blood?
The Elder Elemental God isn't a person, place, or thing - he's all of the above! Conscious as any singular being, but only present in certain circumstances requiring natural elements (and thus bound to the Prime Material Plane and explaining his animosity to the New Gods (would he call them 'Outer Children'?).
He's also more than a 'sum of parts', which could correlate to the emphasis on certain bodily parts in a variety of cultures (Celtic put the head/skull in prominence, while an Aztec sorcerer would literally 'ask his hands' for power and assistance with a spiritual task). This 'divine bodily part' scenario ties in with Clive Barker's Baphomet in Cabal, who the Nightbreed spirit away in pieces... a Divided God!
What of such pieces? Well, they would probably be Relics in the DMG sense, but incredibly potent and carrying part of the EEG's consciousness. If the EEG was spawned from Nyr Dyv, is the treatment/handling of these 'parts' where the Greek-ish elemental logic comes from (i.e. certain parts must be kept near water, some near fire, some buried in secret cairns, some hung in a hidden and windy cave...)
With this general concept, 're-awakening' the EEG and the Temple becomes involved but not necessarily complicated - the opposite of the 'Grail Quest' - instead of the spirit overcoming the flesh in the Arthurian/Grail sense, it would be the reverse: Only the amoral spirit has a chance, and only the most physically 'perfect' can accomplish it!
And this would bring us... back to Lareth, right? Believer in great destiny to gather together the Divided God, or wickedly planning to exploit it and use against Lolth? (perhaps T1's suggested 'protectiveness' of Lareth is nothing of the sort - Lolth wants his head!)
Lareth can't answer - by the time we get to Nulb, he's likely dead - any others involved are now frantic!
In any case, if the EEG is 'divided', then the T1-4 dungeon areas can be separated and spread out over the region...
More tomorrow...
June 23:
ReplyDeleteNothing today. I need more time to get the 'inverse Greek Elements' ideas down and I have a list of some mythical places that will be good inspirational material for ToEE dungeon renovation.
July 24th: (post 1 of 2)
ReplyDeleteFirst, some flavoring for environment and dungeons of Elemental Evil... a little inspiration...
* A Celtic/Welsh mystical place known as Annuvin - I believe this translates as 'not the world'. Ruled by King Arawn. Annuvinians would occasionally raid the world with white hounds that had red ears, in spite of the bounty there, where a great cauldron could feed all.
* Another flavoring is The Wild Hunt
* Feeling a little Babylonian? Check out Apsu and go down to the 'as a deity' section for a connection to Tiamat!
* Want the EEG to have a Mesopotamian 'feel', check out Ginnungagap, the primordial 'void' in a Norse creation myth, which '...faced toward the northern quarter, became filled with heaviness, and masses of ice and rime, and from within, drizzling rain and gusts...'
* Think Zuggtmoy might capitalize on some 'world tree' mythology, check out Hodmimir's Forest...
* Was Thrommel smitten by a demoness pretending to be a goddess? Why not? Aleister would approve!
* Pieces of the Midgard myth here, the world is a great giant Aurgelmir, whose skull was held up by four dwarfs at points of the compass and became the dome of the heavens. Imagine a vault themed around this in the dungeons - the skull of the EEG...
* Elements? Check out Niflheim, one of two 'primordial realms', a realm of cold to counter its opposite, a realm of fire...
LET'S START WITH CLASSICAL ELEMENTALISM:
Wiki link
The Greek/Egyptian:
Air, Earth, Fire, Water.
Babylonian Cosmic Elements:
Wind, Earth, Sky, Sea.
Hindu Five Elements:
Air, Earth, Fire, Water, Akasha (spirit?)
Buddhist association/properties/senses
(in order as above):
Vibration, Solidity, Heat, Cohesion (with a secondary group of color, smell, taste, nutriment).
Chinese elements:
The relations at the wiki link show...
Wood feeds Fire, Fire creates Earth, Earth bears Metal, Metal collects Water, Water nourishes Wood.
...might be good to bring into Elemental Evil's Cult and their philosophy of construction - influencing the dungeon's arrangement of things.
Alchemy:
The alchemic progression...
Lead to Sulphur to Mercury to Gold could correspond to a four part theory above...
The Elemental Cult found that magical power could be derived (with the blessing of the Elder Eye) by separating certain parts of nature and recombining them in a certain sequence. In their strange alchemy, they explored the chemistry of inversion, associating Lead with the earth, Sulphur with fire, Mercury with water, and finally Gold with the air and spirit.
Their altars, totems, and sacred spaces always include all four of these substances, which are hold beneath the watchful Elemental Eye. The possession and handling of these materials was always at the core of their rituals.
The children of the Elder Elemental God always seek to smite other kinds of magic or tribute that uses the materials above. It is recorded that even mighty relics of Good would be sought to transmute them back to lead for sacrifice to their primordial deity.
(continued...)
July 24th: (post 2 of 2)
ReplyDeleteINVERSION FOR FUN AND PROFIT:
Let's take the 'big four' to start with:
Air, Earth, Fire, Water
Let's arrange them per Gygax's clues:
Earth, Water, Air, Fire
(least chaotic to most chaotic)
Do any of these have a conceivable opposite that doesn't reference anothe element? too tough... let's try walking around this...
Consider the absolutes following each element - a thought experiment to try to envision the elemental planes, in a way...
* A pure 'Earth' would be a solid mass, like a mountain.
* A pure 'Water' area would be a huge, deep lake or cistern.
* A pure 'Air' area would be a vast open sky and terribly windy.
* A pure 'Fire' area would be the the hell inside a burning star in the sky.
Consider the opposite of the four above:
* Opposite of Earth wouldn't be wind... it would be a mass that was incorporeal - like a tremendous ghost.
* Opposite of Water, flowing and churning, wouldn't be stone or rock - it would be metal.
* Opposite of Air would be complete stillness, even airlessness - a 'void'.
* Opposite of Fire (release of energy) would be cold and lifelessness.
These opposites all point (as a group) towards the direction of Negative energy, of Undeath.
What of the cult's behaviors and 'on the ground' goals?
Well, what if the EEG's cult wasn't pagan as we would recognize - what if the destruction of existing nature was paramount: where water should be, they sought to create drought; where air was gusting and clean, they sought to still it and block it; where earth existed, it needed to be brought to rubble and dust; and where fire existed, it must be extinguished.
All of these would be pursued, so that the Elder Elemental God could recreate his own bounty of elemental forces upon Oerth (or any other world)!
In simple terms, the EEG's cult becomes something akin to Star Trek's Genesis Device, tearing down the 'existing natural order' to make way for the Elder Eye's Abundance!
This has a kind of anarchy overtone to it - the worship of nature's destructive force.
Easy to see where the 'new Druidic' pagan era of cultivation and harmony would rise to oppose such a thing.
The EEG is primordial, chaotic, and very hungry! He is THE only truth - a raw natural, tyrannic, all-seeing, fiery eye that watches all and knows all. Without name, without perhaps even a true personage, the living are servants and even the (animated) dead can be tools. His Eye of Nature must be pursued, and everything existing is but accident that must be 'cured' by the chaotic forces seeking to sweep outward to everwhere.
Unchecked, consider how a variety of Greyhawk entities would meet such a threat, given that he predates almost all of them. Entire nations/states would be torn apart by such a cult that exists with no known morality or social 'code'.
more stuff from T1-4's dungeon text tomorrow...
July 25th:
ReplyDeleteNotable ToEE Dungeon Areas - Level 1:
#114: Eleven human prisoners are here, but there's nothing in the text about a search party for any of them? Really?
#115: A couple of ghouls, but the text states: It is also hoped that a sufficient force of ghouls and ghasts can be built to be later formed into a contingent of the Temple hordes when they re-remerge to war upon the forces of Good.
~ A wave of undead? (DFD...)
#118: Gary goes Monty Haul... 2 Ghasts joined possibly by 2 in a nearby encounter, and the treasure? 14,000 gp worth of jewelry and a +1 Shield. Huh?
#145: The Earth Temple could be tweaked for use in the mashup easily.
#146: The rat trap! I thought this was pretty simple and 'realistic'.
#152: More prisoners of the Cult! Why isn't anyone scouring the countryside with pitchforks and torches? What the hell is wrong with the people of this region?
All in all, the first level seems out of joint - a compromise between what should be (a tough bunch of cultists and their monster allies underneath a Temple that wants to go to war with the Good) and the 'meta' problems T1-4 puts itself in:
1. Note the hit dice and quantity of monsters on the first level - this is not aimed at high level play at all (but it should be - we're beneath the frigging Temple itself, right?) and plays it safe in the sense that low level characters aren't instantly wiped and are given chances to retreat back to the surface.
2. Dungeons are meant for prisoners, and the content of the first dungeon level doesn't really jump the shark (except for the harpies and bone hallway stuff). This level seems like a generic 'D&D dungeon' with included Temple complex!
3. This level looks like the 'lost level of Quasqueton' to me.
4. If more of a 'ritual maze' would fit into the mashup, you can see where I'd pick CotMA to replace Gygax's levels here, particularly if the Cult didn't construct this but inherited it from a previous entity.
July 26th:
ReplyDeleteNot much today - I hate the second dungeon level. Just hate it.
It might be interesting to split the second dungeon level into quadrants and move them 'up' to link at the outer areas of the first dungeon level.
The third contains the real prison of Zuggtmoy and my spirit won't rest until I've at least addressed that, so perhaps picking up there will be more useful...
July 27th: part 1 of 4
ReplyDeleteThe Holy Megadungeon is giving me agita, so the Dungeon Level encounter keys get put in the 'raw material' pile. Hand me some shells for auto shotgun, we've got surgery to perform...
Top Down? Inside Out? Front to Back? Railroad? Sandbox? Cue the 'proper game design principle' stuff...
Let's work. Can we go back to the 'idea swarm' of previous comments and their ideas and build some kind of 'scaffold' for this construction?
1. We're merging T1-4 and Death Frost Doom. Let's keep Mr. Gygax's encounter key as raw material.
2. Zuggtmoy may be a character, but Elemental Evil is centered around the EEG.
3. The Temple is scaled down, closer to the 'evil chapel' consideration on the surface.
So we ask some questions:
1. If we take Gygax's notes on the Cult of Elemental Evil, then it begins (perhaps the EEG begins) in Nyr Dyv, so why wouldn't the Temple of Elemental Evil be located there?
2. Does the fact that it's located at a distance from Nulb and Hommlet suggest that its location was already special or sacred, and the chapel was simply built in reverence to something already there?
3. Assuming one of the many Elemental 'philosophies/aesthetics', why would a particular location, and what's beneath it, be so special?
4. Dungeons are primarily for keeping/housing prisoners. Other functionality must have a reason/purpose. We can accept that pyramids, temples, ziggurats and the like are built out of faith or spiritual needs... what about a more elemental/primordial faith, that needed the same devotional construction but aimed below ground?
Suggestions/Solution Sets as answers:
#1: I can 'see' a cult on the shores of Nyr Dyv, emerging and congealing into an almost druid-like singular belief structure. Would 'normal' migration bring them South? A pilgrimage of some kind toward... something... would certainly fit, as would conflict pushing them southward.
#2: Rides on top of a suggestion above - the Elementalists sought out this location for some special reason. It's not visible on a beautiful Darlene map... and so perhaps it lies underground already. I find it unlikely that Gygax's placement of the ToEE fit into some kind of strategic or tactical geographic need:
(a) It's not near what became major trade roads.
(b) It's not high on a hill or mountain.
(c) It's not placed (like WG4's Temple) in a place that's just damned hard to get to.
(d) If the fertile soil was a motivator ('greener pastures than around Nyr Dyv') there would be more written about the Temple grounds and the cult's agriculture (with plenty of Gygaxian lore tidbits spicing things up!).
My vote is that something exists underground to merit the placement.
#3: The different elemental philosophies/treatments in different cultures all seem to recognize not just distinct elements but that the world is a synthesis of them. Pagan 'sacred spots' often represent unions of 2 or more elements. One can find shores and grottos in many places. The ToEE should be located on top of an area that represents a union of all four 'major' elements!
#4: The initial dungeon beneath the chapel could certainly be a 'vanilla' dungeon - the smaller chapel size in the mashup would require some 'normal' every day operations would utilize some spaces in the dungeon level. Beneath that, however, we would likely see much more ritual/religious construction - certainly pathways, steps, tunnels leading to whatever anomoly exists below the ground...
(continued...)
July 27th: part 2 of 4
ReplyDeleteSo...Underground...
* Earth is easy - dirt, rocks everywhere.
* Fire could be volcanic/geothermal activity
* Water could be a subterranean geyser, hot springs, or even an underground lake.
* Air is the tough part - there needs to be some kind of vaulting chasm, or a very large, seismically stable opening to the surface - perhaps even a leftover volcanic vent. This would be tough - a stable natural feature open to the surface right above (or near) volcanic/geothermal activity is a rare thing indeed.
As odd as it may sound, I always found B2's Caves of Chaos to actually be very realistic - not a singular large dungeon, but smaller 'sub-dungeons' carved out of a stone canyon. Can we use something like this, but a few levels down into the earth?
So what if the chapel (known to the few who know the place called Emridy Meadows) isn't the real temple?
We need an anomoly, as rare as the Vault of the Drow, to merit some kind of Cultish Elementalist pilgrimage to such a location.
So, imagine a particularly eldritch looking hallway, honorary construction built around cave paintings that predate any Greyhawk temple to a 'New God'. This hallway opens up to a large entrance and a balcony where it is obvious religious assembly occurred...
The balcony is entirely of different kinds of volcanic stone. Elaborate carvings made and assembled over generations make a grand and forboding visage, a kind of 'sacred archway' in a kind of mockery of a pleasant grotto. Generations of stonework, sculpture, and writing etched into stone that has never seen the light of day.
It's the view visible from the balcony that sends a chill through your spines. The balcony overlooks a massive cave, of a sprawling and epic size, in whose vaulting space a fine mist makes the air thick. The mist is warm as it touches your exposed skin, and small wonder, for as you gaze down, a great volcanic mass is at the base of this singularity of rock and geologic sculpture. Warm orange lava bubbles in the great, misty distance far below.
Opposite your position at the balcony, but close to the same altitude, you can vaguely make out the appearance of a huge reservoir - an underground lake of great size, illuminated from the ambient glow of the lava pool and whatever phosphorescent minerals are contained within. The waves of heated air distort the view of this distant, ancient oasis under the ground, yet you can make out man made, geometric structures - shrines of some sort in the form of ziggurats rising out of the water. The body of water must be fed by a significant river flowing underground, as the closest edge of the structure is shored up by construction of some kind - another set of arches comprised of great stones. Over these stone, streams of water wash over and plummet down into the lava almost half a mile below.
As you gaze at this primordial and vast cavern world, you feel gusts of air breaking the warm mist. Looking up, you can see that cave entrances dot the upper parts of this massive cavern. You can barely make out what appear to be human construction joining several of these entrances into a single network. What must have been born as volcanic vents of some sort must hold even more secrets of this enduring Elementalist belief. Some connection to the surface must be present for fresh air to somehow make its way down to these depths.
(continued...)
July 27th: part 3 of 4
ReplyDeleteDespite your shock and amazement of such a world hidden from the surface, the strangest thing seen isn't the natural singularity itself: it's what it contains. Around the midpoint down into the depths, and bridged by long stone arched causeways of some kind, is what appears to be a large stone island of some kind. It seems impossible, like an illusion or trick, but this island seemingly floats high above the great lava pool. Is it supported by the arched bridges? Some kind of enchantment? It is too distant to know for certain. What is visible is that eons of its placement above the heat of volcanic activity have burned away the impure rock and stone, leaving behind an almost polished finish of basalt that reflects the glow of the hot abyss below with a mirror-like clarity. Seemingly constructed out of arches and great stones, this island is home to a large, temple-like structure amid four gargantuan stone heads. The heads seem varied - none are human-like, but all seem primitive - a cross between archaic standing stones, gargoyle-like savagery of appearance, and exotic idols of nothing known to you.
Strangest of all, from an upper section which must be placed above the balcony you stand on, a single very wide shaft of light can be seen as it makes its way through the vaulting mist. It's not enough to reach the stone island, although it seemingly points in that direction. The fade of the shaft of light and its origin seems to indicate the impossible: that it is daylight from the surface world. How the sun's light could travel down to this depth without intervention begs investigation.
Damn...
A place containing the four classical elements would be exceedingly rare - but would be 'sensed' by a consciousness such as the Elder Elemental God. Here, he could call upon whatever elemental forces, or creatures, necessary for his plans.
The stone island would require some kind of enchantment to maintain its position - clever characters would notice that its exact position isn't centered in the volume of the massive cave - it's meant to be equidistant from the water and the lava.
The shaft of light isn't meant to be a skylight of the suns glow... it is meant for the exact position of a single star or constellation - a particular window of time is coming closer, and the recent temple activity is all part of a larger, stellar 'calendar' of sorts.
(continued...)
July 27th: part 4 of 4
ReplyDeleteAs epic as it seems, the great Temple of the Elder Elemental God on the island is the foremost altar to the Great One, and thus holds the most precious of Elementalist treasures - brought here on the backs of The Beloved from the depths of Nyr Dyv. It also is in a precarious arrangement, buoyed by the magic of those relics. This superheated island temple will most certainly collapse should any of the great relics be removed.
So there's the set up: Very soon, the right star will appear through that shaft, casting its glow upon that secret temple. If they can make it down there, what do they do? Make off with the treasure and collapse the temple? That might be a mistake, as the EEG is pure natural chaos and without the Cult's 'Listener' to commune with the Great One, it could be a disaster. If the characters find a way to collapse the astronomical shaft, the temple remains inert (or does it summon something else instead?). Perhaps the ideal is to learn as much as possible and perform the summoning themselves and collapse the island temple with the EEG present. In all these options, it might be easy for the heroes to forget that there's a mile of rock and earth above them waiting to fill in this cavern world.
While the elaborate construction is convincing in its perfection, heroes might not be aware that it is built upon the work of really primitive stonework. A variety of 'earth' spells here might trigger some interesting and messy results, not to mention the attention of some very pissed off elementals running around.
With a druidic/pagan/elemental 'mood' to things beneath the ToEE chapel, now consider the Irish/English folklore and build a myth of the 'Green Lady', as Zuggtmoy's essence begins to leak out of this temple and the stars begin to align for her quest to bring about the Elemental Father...
Mix in the Death Frost Doom Winter, a clear sign that 'the time of Reckoning is close at hand'...
With the above as a 'center', the mapping of all those hallway/room networks should actually be enjoyable!
Finally, remember that as vast as the Elder Elemental God may be, we assume that he is singular, but are there others? If he's a singular entity, are the tentacles in the EEG shrines (per GDQ) a 'kraken'-like reference?
(look at specifics of T1-4's third dungeon level tomorrow...)
James,
ReplyDeleteIf you can point to specifics/subtopics where I can be useful, I'm happy to oblige. I'm kind of rambling at this point and there's a lot of material in the key text for the many levels of dungeon, so I'm not sure what to focus on.
Oh, goodness, I'm not sure. I'm going to have to go back over it all again and see what's what. :)
ReplyDeleteAnd thanks bunches for sharing all of this!
James,
ReplyDeleteNo... Thank You... the comment character limit has really made me rethink editing and putting together stuff.
I still have some general notes on:
1. EEG (My personal take was to have Zuggtmoy impersonate him), so there's still some stuff on 'Elementalism'
2. Zuggtmoy 'leaking' out of the Temple's crumbling imprisonment - Green Lady myths/cults. I had eventually abandoned this concept in favor of having the Temple be 'active' and concealing its evil - essentially scrapping Emridy and the Fall of the Temple as written in Greyhawk canon.
3. Z's fungoid body snatchers - sounds silly in writing but could really add paranoia to the sessions.
4. Time/Parallelism and 'meta-campaign' content: The Temple is 'Active' because Zuggtmoy has found a way to 'capture and imprison' all the parallel time streams where she is defeated. Imagine every 'attack the moathouse' session from anyone is part of the content! It's sounds 'sci-fi' but it's meant to be a bit creepier (like a Hellraiser-ish kind of thing). An homage to Serling's Night Gallery!
Hey I really appreciate the Old School Modules myself that's why I made the colorized map of Homlett you posted in your blog. If people want to see more of my reworked maps they can visit my Deviant Art gallery at http://qworty.deviantart.com/gallery/
ReplyDeleteLinks to Steven's Hommlet and Nulb maps:
ReplyDelete* Hommlet
* Nulb
Thanks for that scottsz and especially Steven. I d'load all kinds of stuff and often have no idea where I originally found them.
ReplyDeleteGeneral Notes on Elementalism
ReplyDelete(with Bombasticusian Update):
[Earth History in reverse - instead of how Earth goes from polytheistic to monotheistic, Elementalism's history is one of a single god, the Elder Elemental God, and his decline ushering in the era of the 'New Gods' - this can be 'the backstory' and expressed using Bombasticus' Alignment Evolution Diagram, where the Gygaxian alignment diagram is just one 'frame' of a very long movie.]
* Primordial Age as one of service to the elements, weather, environment.
* Sacrifice as a means of control, sustaining superior physicality in gene pool, and measurement of sustainability. The weak are 'lesser' and thus are 'thrown back' into the elemental pool, so to speak.
* The Elemental Age is female dominated. The big, bad evil priest with the sacrificial dagger... he's a pawn of the old crone sitting in the shadows behind him. Fertility, renewal - symbolism of a person that becomes a 'place of origin for others' (birth) and invulnerability/renewal (those that bleed but do not die).
* Bombasticusian alignment evolution: back in the primitive era, men and women were 'without knowledge of Good and Evil' - thus neutrality is born as a pre-philosophy, but it is neutrality without balance and harmony - a swirling and moving chaos of both good (promotes the physical/flesh) and evil (harms the physical/flesh).
* Elementalism in practice: ritualized competition for resources/prominence. Female dominated tribal regions. Use of not just symbolism as roots of magic. The power of the natural elements is drawn out of their physical presence. Shaman cannot access the power of water without a quantity of water present.
* As Elementalism emerges 'out of the earth', the elemental knowledge means returning 'to the soil', and subterranean/surface settlements emerge as a means of storing/harboring natural elements and controlling/keeping them safe from 'harm'. (i.e. what appears to be a network of caves is actually carefully dug/carved to allow the 'safekeeping' of a flame/firepit underground - and away from opposing elements - while still allowing friendly elements like air/oxygen to get to it). Elementalism as the true 'root' of subterranean mysticism (why there are so many damned dungeons deep underground).
* Juxtapositions: 'In Earth' versus Surface dwelling. Male organization/fraternity versus Female sovereignty/control. The four classical elements lead to mystical specialism. Coastal origins of Elementalism versus movements and migrations inland.
Why Did It End?
* Intrusions from a counterpart plane (Prime versus Astral? Did the Prime subdivide like a cell?) or direct exposure to the EEG spurred imagination and rebellion - he is chaotic, after all...
* A rival god? Perhaps a male-dominant cult that found a more sublime or 'advanced' form of magic? You can drop a Tharizdun-ish deity right in there up through the Bronze Age: The EEG loses power to a cult from another world that can only be stopped by the cooperation of the 'New Gods' - sounds very Jack Kirby!
* Gender/Mysticism - Paradigm shift... people move 'away from Elements' and turn 'towards New Gods' as a magical source - from Female, tribal dominance to organized, literate Church? Is Greyhawk truly patriarchal?
Next: leakage...
She Gets Everywhere...
ReplyDeleteThe confinement presented in T1-4 is in layers. The backstory of the epic battle suggests that a massive effort was made to seal the Temple and not to destroy it. A difficult thing to invoke such powerful magic during a large scale battle.
The question is: why the hell was Zuggtmoy even there? Why would she continue to occupy the Temple proper during such a battle? Up until a certain point, she can always return to the Abyss to 'fight another day'...
So we need some kind of explanation:
(a) Either Zuggtmoy chose to stay for reasons unknown.
(b) She was kept at the Temple's location for some reason unknown.
Gygax gives us the Yellowskull, mentioning that Z. 'invested' much power into it.
Is a better reason that, through some kind of mysterious process, the Temple's lower layers are actually part of the Abyss? Zuggtmoy can't leave because her home plane is connected to the Prime?
This would make the layered dweomers more sensible - the host of Good is not just trying to imprison Zuggtmoy, but to contain the Abyssal essence.
(Imagine the players faces when they realize, in the lower dungeon levels, that they've actually crossed over into the Abyss)
Over time, however, the magicks lose some of their potency, and Zuggtmoy's ability to manifest outside the Temple becomes stronger.
At first she can appear as not much more than a phantom or ghost, but as time goes on, she can manifest as a person or thing.
This can be a 'mystery hook' for adventuring. Who is the Green Lady scene on the grounds of the Temple? Who is the mysterious and beautiful woman who lures Nulb pirates to their deaths? Who is the little girl that haunts the river?
You get the idea. If we substitue the EEG for Zuggtmoy, the same concepts could apply, making for a lot of creepiness all around, particularly in a Death Frost Winter set up. Instead of the Abyss, the planar connection could be with the Elemental Planes, for instance.
It's been a while, but I am not done with this. I have a compiled document of notes and such but have to edit it a bit. It's probably easier for me to put it up as a Google Doc rather than take forever to break it up into comment blocks due to the character limit on comments.
ReplyDeleteIn the meantime, I've been using images floating around Tumblr to illustrate some of the ideas I've had:
http://scottsz.tumblr.com/elementalevil.
What's most convenient for general use: Google Doc, a direct download to a Word Document, or a PDF? I'm not a terribly organized writer, so I'd like people to be able to copy and paste easily.
If anyone's still reading these comments, throw up a file format opinion. Thanks!
I personally prefer PDF, but go with whatever is your personal preference!
ReplyDeleteDoes anyone know what came of Scottsz?! Both his Cold Text Files and tumblr account appear to have been dismantled.
ReplyDeleteI would also be very interested in hearing more from Scott.
ReplyDeleteJames maybe you can comment? DO you have any of his notes from the net other than the posts here?